Deet and other pesticides hurting the reef?

[RTBDiver]

While we have the Marine park posting here, could you please visit the recent thread on cutters and deet hurting the reef? Like most here I would like to be as environmentally friendly as possible while still being responsible when my own well being comes to mind and we have heard for years and also asked for years for any studies about deet and the reef and any proof deet is any worse than any other repellant, especially those that have had testing, not like cactus juice or bodyguaurd which cannot be sold in other countries as a repellent but those that have actually been proven effective in preventing bites causing dengue and malaria while at the same time proving to be more reef friendly, A lot of people say deet hurts the reef because "the marine park said so" is there any test results on this or is it speculation?. . Thanks I look forward to the reply

 

[mrlipis]

A lot of people say deet hurts the reef because "the marine park said so" is there any test results on this or is it speculation?. . Thanks I look forward to the reply

I too question this. If I get in the water with some deet on my skin and mix it with a gazillion gallons of salt water what is the resulting parts per million? I would be a lot more concerned about the runoff from the island than anything else. Here in the U.S. we create things called de-silting stations. Very simple,very cheap.

 

[Roatan Marine Park]

To answer all your question:

RTBDiver, you are welcome to email us directly or visit our office. We were hoping to raise awareness in regards to the anchoring, and suddenly we are against the ropes about telling people to not use DEET. We try and explain to people that “DEET is fine as long as you don't go in the water”.

Check http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC33407#Ecotoxicity for DEET poison.

Below is an article about sunscreen being a pollutant to coral which we printed in the BIV.

"As you venture down to the beach to top up your tan or go for a snorkel, it’s almost instinctive to slather sun cream on and spray yourself with DEET. It’s always important to protect yourself from the sun’s harmful rays and the pesky no-seeums! It’s fine if you don’t venture into the water, but if you go for a cooling dip or a snorkel, you’re introducing a variety of poisons and toxins into the sea and may be contributing to the death of Roatan’s reefs.

A recent study commissioned by the European Commission estimates that up to 6,000 metric tons of sunscreen washes off swimmers annually in oceans worldwide. Sunscreens comprise of around 20 compounds which act as UV filters and preservatives. The study found that four of these compounds can awaken dormant viruses in the symbiotic algae, zooxanthellae, which live inside corals. The algae are vital in a coral’s survival and without them the coral bleaches, turning white and then dying. The chemicals found in sunscreen cause the viruses to replicate until their algal host explodes, spilling viruses into the surrounding seawater, where they can infect neighboring coral communities. It was found that just a 20-minute dip could wash off about a quarter of the chemicals in the lotion, resulting in the chemicals ending on the reef. The study concluded that up to 10% of the world's reefs are at risk from sunscreen-induced coral bleaching, a gloomy outlook.
While there are so many anthropologic/genic? threats to Roatan’s coral reefs ranging from sedimentation, sewage, pollution, and development, you can at least do your part and choose to use eco-friendly sunscreens. Also avoid using DEET if you intend to go in the sea as this is toxic to plants and animals alike. The Marine Park Green Store stocks eco-friendly sunscreen and repellent so do your part to prevent further bleaching!"
mrlipis, the perspective we need to change globally is the view “It's only "ME" doing it, what effect can "I" have”. Think what a cruise ship of 3,000 people does to West Bay every visit, each person slathered in DEET and sunscreen and urinating in the water. During the summer in the Florida Keys, there is a recorded notice in urine in the water from all the divers, and it certainly wasn't due to just "me" relaxing in the middle of my dive.

Good questions from all but you must understand our organization is very small and has very little power to act. As an NGO we can’t proceed against anyone but what we do is file legal proceedings to the local and central governments, as well as international agencies such as the Environmental Law Alliance Worldwide.
Roatan does not have a coast guard and it is up to our small organization to patrol the Park, maintain marine infrastructure, educate the kids about the coral reefs, push for a recycling program, be a watch dog for official entities, the list goes on. How mad do you think we get when we feel that our efforts are futile. We make reports of mangrove cuts, follow the legal procedures and nothing happens, the cutting continues.
We need your support. We are very under resourced so if you wish to be more pro active, please come to the office and offer your services. We can not afford to run patrols 24 hour a day, nor the logistical capacity, and rely heavily on people calling in. If we had received calls on the evening of the incident, we would have acted accoringly.
Thank you

 

[mrlipis]

Thanks for all the information. I am not a tree hugger by any means. I believe we are all stewards of your communities and our planet but I have skepticism when I read about the sky falling. I don't know the facts about deet and sunscreen. Like I said in my post, the thought of a 1/4 ounce of sunscreen mixing with a million gallons of water just doesn't seem plausible. I may be wrong, however your statement regarding urine, is just not accurate. Urine is a sterile liquid and you could actually drink it with out any ill effect. Unless someone was to have an infection of some sort the urine is sterile.

I am not here to beat you up as I have seen the change in the reefs on Roatan in the last year alone. I have been diving in the rainy season and have seen first hand the effect of runoff and visibility. That is where is I would concentrate my efforts in keeping a healthy reef. Raw sewage and urine are two different things.

I applaud your efforts and some day would like to be on your team (working on my retirement in Roatan). Is there any type of law enforcement on the island that could accompany your organization to an anchored boat and either make an arrest or impound the vessel until restitution is made? Like I said, it was pretty obvious that yacht was anchored somewhere it shouldn't have been. Maybe if "yacht world" was reading about an impounded boat, they might think twice about what they're doing. There has to be accountability for ones actions or it will continue, whether it be on Roatan or somewhere else.

I understand your frustrations with the government there but I just don't understand their inability to see who and what is buttering their bread. Just like last weeks demonstration. Now that was good for business. Didn't mean to ramble, just passionate about some of these issues.

 

[halocline]

I don't know the facts about deet and sunscreen. Like I said in my post, the thought of a 1/4 ounce of sunscreen mixing with a million gallons of water just doesn't seem plausible. I may be wrong, however your statement regarding urine, is just not accurate. Urine is a sterile liquid and you could actually drink it with out any ill effect. Unless someone was to have an infection of some sort the urine is sterile.

A couple of things about this post bother me. First, it's indicative of the attitude "if I can't see it, it must not be there". You have absolutely no way of evaluating the effect of sunscreen and/or urine on coral reefs. That's why we have scientists doing studies. It's a neat trick for people (and companies, and governments) to try to discredit the findings of these scientists, usually because they have a vested economic interest in the issue at hand.

The idea that urine is safe for reefs because it contains no bacteria is foolish. After all, lots of fluids, including gasoline and pesticides, are "sterile." Excessive urine in a marine environment lowers ph and produces elevated levels of nitrates, both of which are influential in algae growth.

I don't mean to pick on you, because you did use some qualifiers in your post like "I don't know the facts...." but there's overwhelming evidence that human activity is causing serious damage to reefs around the world, and unless this activity changes, it's very likely that the remaining reefs will disappear.

 

[mrlipis]

A couple of things about this post bother me. First, it's indicative of the attitude "if I can't see it, it must not be there". You have absolutely no way of evaluating the effect of sunscreen and/or urine on coral reefs. That's why we have scientists doing studies. It's a neat trick for people (and companies, and governments) to try to discredit the findings of these scientists, usually because they have a vested economic interest in the issue at hand.

The idea that urine is safe for reefs because it contains no bacteria is foolish. After all, lots of fluids, including gasoline and pesticides, are "sterile." Excessive urine in a marine environment lowers ph and produces elevated levels of nitrates, both of which are influential in algae growth.

I don't mean to pick on you, because you did use some qualifiers in your post like "I don't know the facts...." but there's overwhelming evidence that human activity is causing serious damage to reefs around the world, and unless this activity changes, it's very likely that the remaining reefs will disappear.

My point being this, environmentalists have a way of making a smoking gun out of the smallest of evidence. I don't know if those chemicals are having an effect or not but would certainly like to see some substantial data to support it. I am much more inclined to believe that development and an unrestricted flow of run-off from the island, has a much greater impact on the health of the reef. I also believe there are a number of inexpensive and easy ways to curb these pollutants from entering the sea.

In regards to urine, it actually turns to ammonia, which in turn is eaten by bacteria, which in turn turns to nitrate which in turn becomes nitrites which is absorbed by plants. While you are correct that algae growth could occur, let's be realistic. In terms of parts per million that is added to the millions of gallons of water it seems unrealistic of any impact on the balance of the ecosystem.
I guess I just don't want to see a wasted effort to keep our reefs healthy, meanwhile the real culprit is going unchecked. It's frustrating to see a campaign to keep our reefs healthy and meanwhile some a$$hole pulls up in his yacht flying a one finger flag, drops a 5 ton anchor on the reef, proceeds to drag it around and meanwhile our marine park has no authority to do anything. This is not a shot at the marine park as I understand the politics there, but frustrating never the less.

 

[mrlipis]

I have done a little research that is relevant to this topic. I have attached a link that may support the effects of sunscreen but is still inconclusive.

Swimmers' Sunscreen Killing Off Coral

I find something interesting in this excerpt.

"But before we ban sunscreens, we must first determine if local ambient concentrations of sunscreens are positively correlated with coral bleaching events."
Danovaro says banning sunscreen won't be necessary, and points out two simple things swimmers can do to reduce their impact on coral: Use sunscreens with physical filters, which reflect instead of absorb ultraviolet radiation; and use eco-friendly chemical sunscreens.

So if you read this article and some other links, it talks about 4 specific chemicals that were present in their studies. Apparently there are sunscreens without these chemicals and sunscreens that reflect instead of absorb. Yet there is no mention of what brands that should or should not be used. So now the consumer is suppose to figure out what he/she should be using. It's hard to believe that someone would do this research and not offer sound recommendations for alternate use.

So this is my suggestion for the areas that are sensitive to the use of sun screen.

A. Identify those brands that are absorbing (By name brand)
B. Ban the sale of those name brands in these areas.
C. Identify those brands that are reflective
D. Promote economical brands that are reflective

The idea of telling beach goers that they can't use sunscreen is futile, but if the locals are educated and the public is educated they will be much more prone to using a product they believe is eco friendly. I for one do not read the ingredients of sunscreen prior to making that purchase and would be much more likely to buy a product if I recognized its name. This could also create a job... instead of being hammered by locals peddling jewelry, they can be promoting an eco friendly sunsreen

And for those that are pissy about urine<--- sorry couldn' help it. Another interesting link

Urine - an ocean nourishment project? - BBC Video

 

[RTBDiver]

And after all this pissing contest, or whatever, I do admit I got off topic a bit with the deet thing but once again, I ask about Deet and the marine park guy replies about sunscreen and pee?? Sorry but the tests I did find about deet suggested a 50% death rate in a given amount of time for juvenile fresh, coldwater rainbow trout occured with DEET ratios of 71,250 parts per billion, which if my calculations are correct, and they might not be, but if so would suggest approximately 46 gallons of 100% deet in one olympic sized pool. Not 30% deet or 40% deep woods stuff but 46 gallons of 100 percent DEET?
From my first post on this topic the RMP suggested I email them directly, I have, a few times and got no response, I emailed another RMP person at another email, No response and the guy here also chose to badmouth my post for being off topic and while it may be off topic it did get his attention yet he failed to answer the questions ask and did not visit the topic and reply as I had suggested ..Hmmmm

As I have always said, as soon as there is another product accepted by any major medical organization, such as CDC, or WHO, that is proven effective against mosquitoes and therfore helping to prevent Dengue and malaria, AND it is proven by the EPA or equivalent to be safer than deet, YOU WILL HAVE A CONVERT, until then I will use what I know works.

 

[mrlipis]

I use cactus juice and personally have found it effective against sand flies and mosquitoes, but I think everyone is different. If I don't need to put that crap on my skin I won't.

 

[RTBDiver]

I use cactus juice and personally have found it effective against sand flies and mosquitoes, but I think everyone is different. If I don't need to put that crap on my skin I won't.

The odd thing about cactus juice is that according to THIS WEBSITE it contains
Octisalate 5% , Oxybenzone 4% and Octinoxate 3.5% which does have tons of stuff all over the net about some of these chemicals causing bleaching. I don't know how accurate this info is but there is a whole lot more written about it than the deet issue.
We all know "natural" does not automatically mean "safe" Heck anthrax can be considered natural.
Not bashing Cactus Juice as it works for many and i doubt its really an issue to the reef but it does appear that according to many that the chemicals used in it, if the mentioned site is correct, that there is more info on it hurting the reef than other products mentioned.