Deep Stops Increases DCS

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More importantly for this thread, Dr. Doolette also said the article has no relevance to the deep stop efficiency debate that occurred on RBW and continues here. That's more a critique of those who would try to use the article to support positions that the article does not, and cannot, support.
What is the address of this thread? Did you forgot?
This is not deep stop efficiency debate but thread trying to answer to the question if Deep Stops increases DCS.
When some of you started jet again deep stop vs shallow stops fight and campain against dèep stops I posted BRW papers for completnes of information.
If you think papers are invalid do the formal review and rebutal.
Untill than - Papers were peer reviewed and published.
 
+1. Indeed, I make this comment often when I review manuscripts in my field and the authors have failed to make their point clear.

+2. I review papers in math and invoke the same language when faced with mystifying proofs and reasoning. I doubt whether either Doolette or Mitchell failed to understand the concepts presented.
 
What is the address of this thread? Did you forgot?
This is not deep stop efficiency debate but thread trying to answer to the question if Deep Stops increases DCS.
When some of you started jet again deep stop vs shallow stops fight and campain against dèep stops I posted BRW papers for completnes of information.
If you think papers are invalid do the formal review and rebutal.
Untill than - Papers were peer reviewed and published.

Peer-reviewed and published - yes, but what does that mean? Long gone are the days when it necessarily means the work is credible.

The scientific literature can be difficult for laypeople (non-scientists) to interpret. One particular aspect of interpreting the literature is distinguishing good work from bad work – and both get published. In a struggle to make this distinction, laypeople often assume that if a journal article is purportedly peer-reviewed, that means it is credible. This assumption is understandable, because that is what laypeople are lead to believe. Implicit in this assumption is that peer-review = expert-review. This is not necessarily true. The growth in the number of journals and the number of scholarly publications (doubling every eight years by some estimates) is exceeding the growth in true experts (a process that takes decades) available to provide review.

There is concern this situation is aggravated by the recent explosion in number of open access journals – thousands of new ones appear each year. Open access publishers charge the authors fees to publish and provide the published articles free to readers (rather than the traditional model where the journal is financed by a scholarly society or by subscriptions). Some of these journals are excellent, but some are predatory (https://scholarlyoa.com/publishers/) – undertaking cursory review in order to proceed to charging fees which are often thousands of dollars.

Finding expert review is particularly problematic in small subspecialty disciplines such as diving physiology, simply because there are very few experts. If the manuscript is published in a journal that has a history of publishing similar work, there is a good chance the editorial staff will recognize what specific expertise is required to review the manuscript and know how to find appropriate experts.

The Journal of Bioengineering and Biomedical Science (Bioengineering Biomedical Journals | Peer Review | Articles List) is a young journal. I mention this because it is an easy exercise to scroll through all published articles on their website and determine that the journal has no history of publishing articles concerned with decompression physiology or risk analysis, the two areas of specific expertise required to provide expert-review of the Wienke BR “Deep stops model correlations” paper. So this particular journal and this particular paper are a combination where true-expert review might be eluded.

I think that this might have happened, for the following reasons. The paper is essentially identical to the unpublished manuscript Igor posted on behalf of Wienke two years ago on Rebreatherworld (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/showthread.php?48461-Correlation-of-popular-diving-models-with-computer-profile-data-and-outcomes/page5&highlight=correlation). That manuscript was described as having been submitted to the journal Computers in Biology and Medicine. Since it was not published there it was evidently rejected after review. From my experience with scientific publication (as an author, reviewer, and editorial board member), I cannot imagine any manuscript, and particularly one that has been rejected from at least one journal, emerging from a true expert-review essentially unchanged.

So how is the layperson supposed to piece all this together and distinguishing good work from bad work? The truth is you probably will not. That is why the efforts of good science-communicators are so valuable.

David Doolette
 
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Peer-reviewed and published - yes, but what does that mean? Long gone are the days when it necessarily means the work is credible.

The scientific literature can be difficult for laypeople (non-scientists) to interpret. One particular aspect of interpreting the literature is distinguishing good work from bad work – and both get published. In a struggle to make this distinction, laypeople often assume that if a journal article is purportedly peer-reviewed, that means it is credible. This assumption is understandable, because that is what laypeople are lead to believe. Implicit in this assumption is that peer-review = expert-review. This is not necessarily true. The growth in the number of journals and the number of scholarly publications (doubling every eight years by some estimates) is exceeding the growth in true experts (a process that takes decades) available to provide review.

There is concern this situation is aggravated by the recent explosion in number of open access journals – thousands of new ones appear each year. Open access publishers charge the authors fees to publish and provide the published articles free to readers (rather than the traditional model where the journal is financed by a scholarly society or by subscriptions). Some of these journals are excellent, but some are predatory (https://scholarlyoa.com/publishers/) – undertaking cursory review in order to proceed to charging fees which are often thousands of dollars.

Finding expert review is particularly problematic in small subspecialty disciplines such as diving physiology, simply because there are very few experts. If the manuscript is published in a journal that has a history of publishing similar work, there is a good chance the editorial staff will recognize what specific expertise is required to review the manuscript and know how to find appropriate experts.

The Journal of Bioengineering and Biomedical Science (Bioengineering Biomedical Journals | Peer Review | Articles List) is a young journal. I mention this because it is an easy exercise to scroll through all published articles on their website and determine that the journal has no history of publishing articles concerned with decompression physiology or risk analysis, the two areas of specific expertise required to provide expert-review of the Wienke BR “Deep stops model correlations” paper. So this particular journal and this particular paper are a combination where true-expert review might be eluded.

I think that this indeed happened, for the following reasons. The paper is essentially identical to the unpublished manuscript Igor posted on behalf of Wienke two years ago on Rebreatherworld (http://www.rebreatherworld.com/showthread.php?48461-Correlation-of-popular-diving-models-with-computer-profile-data-and-outcomes/page5&highlight=correlation). That manuscript was described as having been submitted to the journal Computers in Biology and Medicine. Since it was not published there it was evidently rejected after review. From my experience with scientific publication (as an author, reviewer, and editorial board member), I cannot imagine any manuscript, and particularly one that has been rejected from at least one journal, emerging from a true expert-review essentially unchanged.

So how is the layperson supposed to piece all this together and distinguishing good work from bad work? The truth is you probably will not. That is why the efforts of good science-communicators are so valuable.

David Doolette

This post, especially the last paragraph, is IMO important for the diving public to really absorb.
 
What is the address of this thread? Did you forgot?
This is not deep stop efficiency debate but thread trying to answer to the question if Deep Stops increases DCS.
Both titles refer to the same thing. If you say "Deep Stops Increase DCS" you are saying "Deep Stops are Less Efficient Than Non-Deep Stops". It's the same topic.
 
Igor, now that you have brought Bruce's attention to this to thread and he has posted in it, do you have to relay specific updates to him? We have very eminent decompression doctors with day jobs who are giving very generously of their time to ensure we understand their position vis-a-vis deep stops/dcs/decompression/so much more - I wouldn't think you would be required to give specific updates since it does appear that Bruce is following this thread. (Although it is certainly Kind of you to do so!)


David,

I did read your review and understood there were things unclear to you, so I made a conclusion you did not understand the paper and its results regardless of reasons for it. Sure did not want to say it is not the topic of your expertise. For rest of your comment about BRW work hopefully he will answer you. I did pass information to him as I promised.
 
Yeah, I find the whole "when/if he has time to post" thing from Bruce and his boys to be complete BS.
 
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Igor, now that you have brought Bruce's attention to this to thread and he has posted in it, do you have to relay specific updates to him?
No I do not have to relay anything to anyone
We have very eminent decompression doctors with day jobs who are giving very generously of their time to ensure we understand their position vis-a-vis deep stops/dcs/decompression/so much more - I wouldn't think you would be required to give specific updates since it does appear that Bruce is following this thread. (Although it is certainly Kind of you to do so!)
My only part in whole this debate was only completing info I have seen as not complete.. Yes beside this I brought attention of this thread to Bruce and in fewe ocasions promised I will pass specific info to him or he asked me to post his answer and his papers as being unable to do it personaly, what I did.
On my last passed info (that I promised I will pass) he promised he will answer but I do not know when. This is not in my power to know.
Same as I am waiting for his answer you will need to. That is all from my side.
.
 
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Thanks Igor.

Yes, fair enough. But my point really was that he made the error in the first place and then tried to deny it.

Simon M
I find this to be an odd quote from someone that does "research" and is touted as one of the experts....Did he try to "deny" it or did he challenge the assertions and then quickly correct a mistake once he was convinved. Truthfully- I find it refreshing when "experts" can admit they made a mistake and update their work.....I mean, isnt that what experts do...ask questions, challenge assumptions....and sometimes they are wrong and need to adjust their work. Updating an error should be applauded, not ridiculed.
 
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