Deep Stop Option

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IIRC, Uwatec has some computers with a feature called "microbubble suppression" or something like that. Effectively it adds in false deco stops by becoming extraordinarily conservative. If you blow away those false stops, it just warns you and goes to the next more liberal setting or something.

Perhaps someone who has this computer can tell us whether it works well or is just too confusing.

Deep stops could be added to a computer in a similar fashion.

Charlie Allen
 
I know this thread is a little old, but the jury is definitely in on deep stops. The second quarter 2008 SOURCES magazine has the results of a detailed study of bubble formation (doppler testing) for over 200 dives using various stop depths and times. Bottom line is a deep stop (1/2 max depth or 50 ft) of 2.5 minutes and shallow stop of 1 min at 15 feet were the best combination. I'd love to see Aeris and Oceanic incorporate a deep stop timer in future updates.

M
 
Its only a year and a half old but yes, the jury is definitely in.

Most modern bubble gradient and variable permeability models use deeper stops as it is easier to prevent bubble formation than it is to do what amounts to a bend and treat approach with longer, shallower stops.

Another unintended consequence fr many recreational divers is that the planned stop at 1/2 max depth slows the ascent as you approach 1/2 max depth and you stop there, then slowly begin to ascend what is a short distance to a 15-20 ft safety stop. So it has the overall effect of slowing ascent rate and slower ascent rates tend to produce fewer bubbles, especially 60 feet or above where the rate of pressure change is greater per ft.

Its all good.

In my experience most computers will not add on much if any penalty for a deep stop. At worst if you leave max depth at the absolute end of the NDL, a slow ascent and a deep stop may put you into deco mode, but again after the stop and slow ascent to the "deco stop" the computer usually clears before you get there, so just park at the normal safety stop depth for 5 minutes, or if you are really cautious, until the N2 bar is out of the yellow.

Personally, I tend to ignore my computer telling me I can surface (I regard it as a back up most dives) and dive a plan on the slate or for recreational depths, the deco curve in my head that involves a deep stop then a very slow and gradual ascent with brief stops every 10 feet until I reach and complete a 3-5 minute 20 ft safety stop. I feel better doing it that way after a long diving weekend than blindly following the computer.
 
I really wished my Pro Plus 2 had a deep stop option. Reading the latest research from Dan an additional deep saftey stops adds a significant margin of saftey versus only making the normal 20 -15ft saftey stop.

Would be real nice if Ocenanic would provide a firmware upgrade to add this as a user selectable option.

Oceanic should set an example for the dive community and lead the way with latest saftey options for their customers.

The market niche of Oceanic is affordability. They market a lot of products that almost anyone can afford, putting good gear at the reach of anyone who wants to try and do diving.

There is nothing to stop you from always making your first stop at 1/2 of your MOD (max operating depth) for 1 min. If your dive was to 75 ft, then make your first stop at 40 ft.

If your dive was to 100 ft, then make your first stop at 50 ft.

From there, I would proceed in 10 ft intervals for 1 min each, but that is only because this is what I am used to doing. Otherwise, make your final stop at 15 ft for 3 mins.

Your dive computer should not need to tell you absolutely everything.
 
I know this thread is a little old, but the jury is definitely in on deep stops. The second quarter 2008 SOURCES magazine has the results of a detailed study of bubble formation (doppler testing) for over 200 dives using various stop depths and times. Bottom line is a deep stop (1/2 max depth or 50 ft) of 2.5 minutes and shallow stop of 1 min at 15 feet were the best combination. I'd love to see Aeris and Oceanic incorporate a deep stop timer in future updates.

M

I doubt the wisdom of shorter shallow stops. Study or no.

A final stop in the range of 3 to 5 mins, with intermediate and deep stops of about 1 min each, makes more sense to me.

Gas tension increases with decreasing ambient pressure. Thus your final stop before surfacing would always have your highest tissue gradients and longest deco-offgassing times.

A 2:1 ratio for maximum tolerance would always put the last stop somewhere in the range of 10 to 33 ft. for the majority of required time.

Don't believe everything that you read in an amateur diving magazine.
 
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In my experience most computers will not add on much if any penalty for a deep stop. At worst if you leave max depth at the absolute end of the NDL, a slow ascent and a deep stop may put you into deco mode, but again after the stop and slow ascent to the "deco stop" the computer usually clears before you get there, so just park at the normal safety stop depth for 5 minutes, or if you are really cautious, until the N2 bar is out of the yellow.

....

Yes, exactly right. So what if there is a "penalty"? I will gladly give more time, just to make sure to be safe. Although as you said, it has never become an issue.
 
The issue is not whether we should do deep stops, but that if we decide to, then at least have a dive computer that provides us with that option or facilitates the process. Something as simple as adding seconds to the minutes in the dive time would be hugely helpful in tracking the deepstop.
 
The issue is not whether we should do deep stops, but that if we decide to, then at least have a dive computer that provides us with that option or facilitates the process. Something as simple as adding seconds to the minutes in the dive time would be hugely helpful in tracking the deepstop.

On relatively shallow south Florida reefs, safety may simply not be a concern, if you are indeed right.

But anywhere else, this issue is maximum safety from the risk of DCS. Therefore deep stops are actually more of a given, and any time needed to compensate for a time penalty is therefore a given as well, if you really want to be safe.

I believe that you should always decide to do a deep stop at 1/2 of your MOD, whatever that be.
 
The issue is not whether we should do deep stops, but that if we decide to, then at least have a dive computer that provides us with that option or facilitates the process. Something as simple as adding seconds to the minutes in the dive time would be hugely helpful in tracking the deepstop.
It is a man-machine interface problem.

Right now, the dive computer controls your profile ONLY if you are into mandatory decompression. You apparently want the dive computer to give you guidance on option non-mandatory stops.

One possible way (and IMO the optimal way) to do this is to have the conservatism of the computer user adjustable during the dive.
Then you would simply start cranking up the conservatism until you get the stops you want. This would be most effective in a computer that implements a true dual phase model such as VPM or the full RGBM model, or if the conservatism is implemented using gradient factors on a neo-Haldanian model. All of those models would generate deep stops as you crank the conservatism up to unusually high levels. This would not work well in either straight neo-Haldanian or neo-Haldanian emulations of RGBM such as "Suunto RGBM" as they will generate mostly 10' and then maybe a 20' stop even as conservatism is cranked up to ridiculous levels.

Or you can just fudge it and add whatever additional conservatism/non-mandatory stops you want. As you pointed out, the key feature to assist in that would simply be to show dive runtime with seconds resolution. Another potential aid would be to add a stopwatch type function.

As with all man-machine interface questions, it is a tradeoff between having a few simple to understand features vs adding additional features at the cost of making the device more complicated to use and understand.

---------------------------------

My personal ad-hoc way of generating deep stops is:

1. At the start of my final ascent, choose a Total Ascent Time based upon my overall loading, water temp, exertion levels during the dive, the phase of the moons of Jupiter and any other miscellaneous conditions.

2. I split my Total Ascent Time between 3 stops. More specifically, I figure out when I should depart the "deepest stop", the "middle stop" and depart the "shallow stop" (in other words, at what runtime do I intend to surface).

3. In keeping with looking at what happens in various deco programs, I choose to make the shallowest stop about 1/2 of the total ascent time, and split the other half between the "middle stop" and the "deepest stop", with the deepest stop being a bit shorter.

4. The shallowest stop always starts at 20' and slowly slides up to 10' (or a bit shallower from a shallow dive). The deepest stop is somewhere in the 40' range (if starting my final ascent from 70 or 80' and shallower) or around 50' if starting from 120' or shallower. The middle stop splits the depth of the other two stops (in other words, it will be anywhere from 25' to 35' depending upon the start point of the ascent).

5. I ignore the maximum depth of the dive. My dives are often very multilevel. For the purposes of my final ascent, I ignore the depth I was at 1 hour ago and look at the depth over the last 10 or 15 minutes to determine the depth of my first stop.

My dive computer doesn't have a seconds display on the runtime. I get around that by picking an whole minute runtime for my departure from the deepest stop. The departure-from-stop time reflects both the time for a 30fpm ascent and whatever stop time I've chosen for the deepest stop --- typically 1 to 3 minutes. In practice, this means that my deepest stop is extended a bit.

The above description is much more complicated to type out and read than to actually do. In practice, the only two things that you really have to remember are 1) runtime at the start of the ascent, and 2) the total ascent time you have decided upon. Keeping those two things in memory is all that is needed to recalculate things as you go along while keeping yourself on what IMO is a near optimal ascent profile.
 
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I doubt the wisdom of shorter shallow stops. Study or no.

A final stop in the range of 3 to 5 mins, with intermediate and deep stops of about 1 min each, makes more sense to me.

Gas tension increases with decreasing ambient pressure. Thus your final stop before surfacing would always have your highest tissue gradients and longest deco-offgassing times.

A 2:1 ratio for maximum tolerance would always put the last stop somewhere in the range of 10 to 33 ft. for the majority of required time.

Don't believe everything that you read in an amateur diving magazine.
I'm not sure where you got amateur dive magazine. "Sources" is the NAUI dive professional magazine. The study in the magazine is not opinion, but a scientific study that includes information from the European Underwater Biomedical Society proceedings, "Undersea Hyperbaric Medicine 2004 and 2005", and "Aviation Pace Environment Medicine 2005". Bottom line, a 1 minute deep stop followed by a 3 minute normal safety stop resulted in a bubble score index (count of number and density) that was almost three times the score for a 2.5 min deep stop and a 1 min shallow stop.

There is much more to the study, but the bottom line is a deep stop of 2.5 min is more effective than a shallow stop of any length in prevention of bubbles. Hope you get a chance to look over it.
 
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