Deep Air survey

[MikeFerrara]

stardiver once bubbled...


Mike, have you had some kind of problem at Gilboa that makes you so down on the place? You certainly seem to dive there a lot. And you don't seem to have a problem with having your PADI instructor credentials listed on their website.

Three fatalities, in all the years I can remember diving there. One was probably a murder, but I am sure you can tell that story much better than I. Last year's was a very overweight gentleman in poor physical condition and was probably a heart attack. At least one other squad run was a heart attack as the gentleman consequently underwent bypass surgery.

Other stories?

stardiver,

I love Gilboa. Unfortunately some of the stuff I see there tends to keep my heart in my throat the whole time I am there. I see things that are beyond words but I try. I guess I'm down on much of what I see in dive training and the dive industry lately. Honest I see some scarry stuff. You can do a search on my posts to get some stories and feel free to PM me for others. Mike (the owner) is a great guy and is very concerned about safety. I wish I could say the same for many who dive and teach there. The fatalities don't tell the story as most live through their (don't have a word for it)

You sound like a regular so I'm sure we have at least passed each other. I could tell Gilboa (dive industry) stories for hours and hours but I'm not sure what your looking for. Again feel free to PM me or for that matter call since you have the number. Actually, for the most part except for teaching and the rare social outing I have given up diving where this stuff goes on. This is only because I can't do anything about it and yet I can't enjoy myself while watching either.

Mike

 

[MikeFerrara]

stardiver,

BTW, A search of my posts will also show a good number of Haigh quarry references. That's because that's the other place where I do a fair amount of teaching. It isn't Haigh or Gilboa it's the things that go on at those locations.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

Unfortunately injuries at Gilboa are not uncommon. I myself have witnessed 4 or 5 ambulance runs and several near misses. There was one fatality last year and there have been several others in past years. I think others have been narced at Gilboa. My bet is that none of those divers will admit the problems they had. In some cases I know that for a fact. Surely narcosis isn’t the only cause. I have talked a lot about the other probable causes on this board.

I have lots of other accounts if anyone is interested.

From a Gilboa regular:

"1 fatality last year. It was probably, honeslty, a heart attack. The gentleman was 50-ish, overweight, and obviously not in good physical shape. I don't know what instructor he was with. That's been kept very very quiet.

This poster must dive gilboa quite often to have seen that many runs. I can remember 4-5 runs in the last several years; remembering that until the quarry changed hands, anyone could jump in wherever and whenever they wanted, qualified or not. Once, Mike and I were decoing at the deep side under the dock and some moron ( in a class of all things) did an entry and tumbled straight to the bottom. Mike had to yank me out of the way as I didn't see him coming, and he had to hang onto me to keep me from chasing the moron. Until the fatality, the quarry had gone 15 months without an ambulance call. According to a quote from the owner after last year's death, they put through over tens of thousands of divers a year.

Since the new ownership has taken over, accidents have been greatly reduced. Divers without advanced certs, proof of recent cold water dives, environmentally prepared regs, and redundancy are not permitted on the deep side. This helps keep people who don't belong there off the semitrailer. Helium and argon are now available at the Gilboa fill station.

Unfortunately, there are still money-hungry instructors who will throw anyone willing to pay for an AOW class off that deep dock.

Quarries don't kill divers. Divers who are where they don't belong kill themselves.

What moron posted this, and where? You are welcome to share the facts, BTW."

 

[Popeye]

WreckWriter once bubbled...
Ask Rob Palmer, Archie Forfar, Ann Gunderson, and many others, whose names don't spring to mind, where he is.
WW

Archie and Ann, 475 ft.

Rob Palmer, a week of 360 ft dives.

Got any around 140 ft?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


From a Gilboa regular:

Unfortunately, there are still money-hungry instructors who will throw anyone willing to pay for an AOW class off that deep dock.

Quarries don't kill divers. Divers who are where they don't belong kill themselves.

What moron posted this, and where? You are welcome to share the facts, BTW."

Yes you are CORRECT. And I have news the shallow side is much more eventfull on a weekend than the deep side. As I said the owner is a great guy who does what he can. Quarries don't kill divers but greedy unskilled instructors do. And even if they don't kill anyone they sure muck up the place.

And then there was the time that a diver surfaced screaming for help and I sent one of my DM's off to help. Then there was the time when someone started screaming that there was a lost diver over the wall by the bus and I sent my class out of the water with two of my DM's. I gave it a quick check just in time see two other divers (if you can call them that) plumit (the best word I can come up with) over the wall (I presume to search?). And then there was the time that I was leading a class past the plane and I noticed a plume of silt rising from the nose of the plane like someone was digging in the bottom. I had two of my DM's hold with the class while I descended into the cloud to try to see if some one was in trouble. Then there was the time when My wife and I were hanging out doing deco at 20 ft and a diver was cought? in a tree with other divers doing goofy things around him. I descended again (breaking my schedule) to assist. Then there was the time when I was doing some tune up dives with a board member and a huge class was bringing a child student into the dock who was so cold he couldn't even move. We had to yeild (polite way of saying they ran us over) the right of way at the dock so they could get him out of the water (they had to carry him). It was awfull cold for OW students in wet suits, IMO. they had the kid take a warm shower and took him on another dive.

I have others but most should get the idea. It isn't the quarry or the owner it's the divers and instructors.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


From a Gilboa regular:
Helium and argon are now available at the Gilboa fill station.

When I was there weekend before last there was no He or argon yet but Mike told me he was getting it.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


20 ft deeper can make all the difference. The gear is part of what gets it done and it's not the class or the card it's the skills. ok you need the card to buy the gas, sorry.

I don't need DIR doubles to dive the Bibb. It's a rediculous notion. Tourist divers with AOW cards dive that wreck by the thousands every year.

Sometimes dives should be passed up. We must all live within our means (or at least close). There are some things that you can't do if you can't afford it. There are other things that you might get away with doing.

Right. When you show me a reason why a diver can't make an educated decision to dive 140 or 150 on air, then I might let you dictate my means. You've given no sound reason as of yet, just strawmen.

A few dives a year going to 150 sounds like a shoe-in for the next DAN accident report.

Hasn't been for the last 30 or 40 years.

BTW, Popeye your profile says your trimix qualified why not use it? Did you do your trimix training with the single 95?Why does the suggestion to not do a dive that one may not be prepared fore get you going?

I do use it, when I feel it's individually necessary, and if it's available.

Yes, I did do some of my trimix training in a 95, and do at least half my trimix dives in a 95.

Because whether or not I'm prepared for it is my decision, and not yours.

If you choose to take additional risk to do a dive that's your business. To rationalize it in public where it might help convince someone else to cut the same corners is IMO irresponsible. If that's what you want to do then do it but don't take anybody else with you!

I advocate training, education, experience.

You advocate unjustifiable arbitrary limits, and say that you dive "narcosis free".

Which one of us is more dangerous, do you think?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Popeye once bubbled...


I don't need DIR doubles to dive the Bibb. It's a rediculous notion. Tourist divers with AOW cards dive that wreck by the thousands every year.

I don't know what DIR doubles are and I don't know anything about the Bibb and you can certainly use whatever equipment you think will work for you on the dive.

Right. When you show me a reason why a diver can't make an educated decision to dive 140 or 150 on air, then I might let you dictate my means. You've given no sound reason as of yet, just strawmen.

When will you get it through your head that I don't care what you do and I'm not trying to dictating anything to you?

Hasn't been for the last 30 or 40 years.

I don't know who you are talking about but the DAN report shows a significant number of injured divers who have few recent dives and are diving deep.

I do use it, when I feel it's individually necessary, and if it's available.

Yes, I did do some of my trimix training in a 95, and do at least half my trimix dives in a 95.

Because whether or not I'm prepared for it is my decision, and not yours.

By all means I don't want the job of making your decisions. Do what you want and good diving to you.

I advocate training, education, experience.

You advocate unjustifiable arbitrary limits, and say that you dive "narcosis free".

Which one of us is more dangerous, do you think?

You seem to advocate dealing with the effects of air at depth rather than reducing those effects. I have advocated no limits. I only referenced sources that do and stated there is a reason they do. I believe that the effects of N2, Co2 and O2 are best controled by choices of gasses. Why does that bother you? My beliefs need not have any effect on how you dive. Your petty attempts at insults to my credability won't change my beliefs.

hmm...which one of us do I think is more dangerous...I don't think I'll answer that.

 

[Popeye]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...

I don't know what DIR doubles are and I don't know anything about the Bibb and you can certainly use whatever equipment you think will work for you on the dive.

I don't know who you are talking about but the DAN report shows a significant number of injured divers who have few recent dives and are diving deep.

You seem to advocate dealing with the effects of air at depth rather than reducing those effects. I have advocated no limits. I only referenced sources that do and stated there is a reason they do. I believe that the effects of N2, Co2 and O2 are best controled by choices of gasses. Why does that bother you? My beliefs need not have any effect on how you dive. Your petty attempts at insults to my credability won't change my beliefs.

You don't know what DIR doubles are, yet talk about proper gear for mixed gas diving.

You advocate the 5 rules of accident analysis, but can't expalin why cavern divers are limited to 70 ft.

You grossly exaggerate the DAN incident report (frequently).

You grossly exaggerate the number of diving related injuries you see, per Gilboa.

You describe "many" deep air deaths, but can't cite a single one (relevent to our conversation).

You state you dive narcosis free, which is a laugh.

You're doing the job on your own credibility without my help.

Your beliefs don't have any effect on my diving, trust me, and you are welcome to them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You advocate the 5 rules of accident analysis, but can't expalin why cavern divers are limited to 70 ft.

The 70 ft is a training standard for cavern divers that has likely has less to do with narcosis than it does other aspect. This limit veries from agency to agency but they are all 130 or above. The depth limit for cavern is less for cavern because they have less training, often single tanks and smaller supplies and without any redundancy.

You grossly exaggerate the DAN incident report (frequently).

You grossly exaggerate the number of diving related injuries you see, per Gilboa.

I tell exactly what I see at Gilboa. I was never alone when I witnessed any incedent so I have witnesses other than myself for each. Yes I refer to them often because they are often relevant. Also I have dozens more I can cite. Note I said incedent not injury.

As for the DAN report here I will reference the January (I think is was Jan) issue of dive training. They did a good piece concerning the dan report . They came to the same conclusions and stressed the same points that I do. It will be easier reading for you than the report itself.