I get that. Just throwing options at him.
Decompression Course
- Thread starter NL1983
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I get that. Just throwing options at him.
Hi All,
Some things seem to have been 'lost in translation', most likely because I typed my previous post quite quickly. I must admit that I do find it quite remarkable how quickly people respond in quite a negative way on something they perceive as not being the 'right way of doing things'.
Lets continue the proper discussion
1. Most likely I will not do the extra training, because:
- I would most likely only use it at here
- It is apparently not required to experience the things I'd like to experience (read: I do not need to do DECO nor go beyond 40m to see the things I'd like to see)
2. Therefore I will not dive past my own limits
3. Unless accompanied by a CMAS instructor who is allowed to bring someone with my experience on specific dives and is trained to do so. Here I am uncertain of what is allowed as I am unaware of the CMAS system. Before doing any of this I will find out more about and see if it makes sense and sounds safe to me. I cannot imagine though that a strict organization such as CMAS would allow un-safe practices.
One 'defending' comment, yes I am a **** instructor (to semi-quote someone before), yes I dive safely with my students and know what I'm doing with them. That does not mean I have knowledge about the entire tech universe of all the different companies, that doesn't mean either that I know all rules and guidelines of other companies up-to recreational instructor level. Clearly I understand that going to 60meter for 60min on a single tank is not very wise... Rephrase, that is plain st*pid.
As I lack the knowledge of which options exist in that space (and am more than willing to admit that), I asked a simple question and got loads of helpful responses. As it seems now though the tips for which courses to follow are probably not required anymore, but it is good to know though what options exist in case I decide to go into tech.
Would I personally take a student beyond any limit set by PADI, not me.
Sometimes I do think though that there are instances where someone can consider diving beyond the license in their pocket though. E.g. a certified open-water diver with 250 dives that would like to see that pygme-seahorse at 23m (yes I have come across these people). Or going down to look at a wreck at 50meters, guided by two instructors (both on twin-tanks plus safety tank hanging from boat) that have done the (super well planned and briefed) dive >100 times before.
Does it make me super irresponsible if I weigh the situation carefully and judge for myself whether a specific situation (and more important the right super-vision) is safe enough for me to go a bit beyond my training? Some will say yes, others will argue the other side. For those that answer yes, just think about other situations where you might do the same (read judge a situation to be safe, even though it is not allowed officially), e.g. have you never Jay-walked? I'm not trying to get a whole discussion started on whether black = black and white = white and whether or not the rules should always be obeyed, I just want to show that not everyone makes the same decision at any given time. Do I believe I have enough information to make a sound decision at this moment with the information at hand, absolutely not...
Yet again I am grateful for the constructive answer and tips that have been given so far. It is great to have so much knowledge concentrated in one place.
Some things seem to have been 'lost in translation', most likely because I typed my previous post quite quickly. I must admit that I do find it quite remarkable how quickly people respond in quite a negative way on something they perceive as not being the 'right way of doing things'.
Lets continue the proper discussion
1. Most likely I will not do the extra training, because:
- I would most likely only use it at here
- It is apparently not required to experience the things I'd like to experience (read: I do not need to do DECO nor go beyond 40m to see the things I'd like to see)
2. Therefore I will not dive past my own limits
3. Unless accompanied by a CMAS instructor who is allowed to bring someone with my experience on specific dives and is trained to do so. Here I am uncertain of what is allowed as I am unaware of the CMAS system. Before doing any of this I will find out more about and see if it makes sense and sounds safe to me. I cannot imagine though that a strict organization such as CMAS would allow un-safe practices.
One 'defending' comment, yes I am a **** instructor (to semi-quote someone before), yes I dive safely with my students and know what I'm doing with them. That does not mean I have knowledge about the entire tech universe of all the different companies, that doesn't mean either that I know all rules and guidelines of other companies up-to recreational instructor level. Clearly I understand that going to 60meter for 60min on a single tank is not very wise... Rephrase, that is plain st*pid
. As I lack the knowledge of which options exist in that space (and am more than willing to admit that), I asked a simple question and got loads of helpful responses
. As it seems now though the tips for which courses to follow are probably not required anymore, but it is good to know though what options exist in case I decide to go into tech.Would I personally take a student beyond any limit set by PADI, not me.
Sometimes I do think though that there are instances where someone can consider diving beyond the license in their pocket though. E.g. a certified open-water diver with 250 dives that would like to see that pygme-seahorse at 23m (yes I have come across these people). Or going down to look at a wreck at 50meters, guided by two instructors (both on twin-tanks plus safety tank hanging from boat) that have done the (super well planned and briefed) dive >100 times before.
Does it make me super irresponsible if I weigh the situation carefully and judge for myself whether a specific situation (and more important the right super-vision) is safe enough for me to go a bit beyond my training? Some will say yes, others will argue the other side. For those that answer yes, just think about other situations where you might do the same (read judge a situation to be safe, even though it is not allowed officially), e.g. have you never Jay-walked? I'm not trying to get a whole discussion started on whether black = black and white = white and whether or not the rules should always be obeyed, I just want to show that not everyone makes the same decision at any given time. Do I believe I have enough information to make a sound decision at this moment with the information at hand, absolutely not...
Yet again I am grateful for the constructive answer and tips that have been given so far. It is great to have so much knowledge concentrated in one place.
Herein lies the problem. You're assuming that you're "gently pushing your limits". You're not. It's a nonlinear escalation of risk to cross the barrier into decompression diving - even under the watchful eye of an instructor. As a technical diving instructor I would never take someone on what equates to a "discover decompression" dive.
CMAS is perfectly safe, but it is its own system. We dive with a person locally who was raised up in the CMAS system. She is a terrific diver and though far less experienced, has a great amount of knowledge. That is the benefit of coming up through that system. You did not come up through that system, so knowing more about it - unless you intend to undertake CMAS instruction - will only make you knowledgeable about what CMAS teaches; it will not arm you with the knowledge of a CMAS diver. Giving yourself over to someone who is qualified when you state that you are expressly not, is a "trust me" dive and should represent a level of risk that, even as a PADI instructor, you ought to recognize as stupid.
---------- Post added August 6th, 2014 at 05:49 AM ----------
In this case, yes. You're not talking about gently pushing the limits by staying a few minutes over your NDL at 60 feet. You're not talking about quickly dipping down to 138 feet to check the props on a wreck. You're talking about following another perfect stranger into a depth you've never been to that will require procedures you've never heard of.
Nirvana
Contributor
PNL1983,
I, for one, think you have made the right decision. A slightly better experience in one trip is not worth the effort and expense of taking a tech course.
About the dive with the CMAS instructor. I am not familiar with CMAS, and I have been guilty of doing similar things. But, no matter how good the agency, you'd better know and trust the instructor (especially his common sense) before agreeing to being led into deco dives. You probably didn't need me to tell you this, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to say. ��
So, enjoy your trip!
edit: I am assuming you are wondering about 5-10 min of deco from a dive to about 40m, not 40min after coming from 60m.
I, for one, think you have made the right decision. A slightly better experience in one trip is not worth the effort and expense of taking a tech course.
About the dive with the CMAS instructor. I am not familiar with CMAS, and I have been guilty of doing similar things. But, no matter how good the agency, you'd better know and trust the instructor (especially his common sense) before agreeing to being led into deco dives. You probably didn't need me to tell you this, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to say. ��
So, enjoy your trip!
edit: I am assuming you are wondering about 5-10 min of deco from a dive to about 40m, not 40min after coming from 60m.
alewar
Contributor
This is the table we use in CMAS-Germany, based on the Bühlmann model:
Note that you have only 7 minutes bottom time at 42m and you will be using about 8 bar/min with a 12L cylinder.
Btw. most CMAS instructors that actually know one thing or two about technical diving will tell you that the 40m max. depth is more a legacy thing and should be changed to 30m.
Note that you have only 7 minutes bottom time at 42m and you will be using about 8 bar/min with a 12L cylinder.
Btw. most CMAS instructors that actually know one thing or two about technical diving will tell you that the 40m max. depth is more a legacy thing and should be changed to 30m.
I personally would never incur a significant decompression obligation on a single tank, especially a small one, but that's me.
But it's okay -- I did two days of diving in Rangiroa and never exceeded 100 feet of depth, and had some of the best diving experiences of my life. The outer reef is utterly stunning; the blue water is full of fish schools patrolled by larger predator fish and sharks. We were perhaps too shallow to see the sharks in Tiputa Pass, but the experience of sailing at that speed was exhilarating anyway.
You'd have to be very jaded to need a technical cert to enjoy diving in Rangiroa.
But it's okay -- I did two days of diving in Rangiroa and never exceeded 100 feet of depth, and had some of the best diving experiences of my life. The outer reef is utterly stunning; the blue water is full of fish schools patrolled by larger predator fish and sharks. We were perhaps too shallow to see the sharks in Tiputa Pass, but the experience of sailing at that speed was exhilarating anyway.
You'd have to be very jaded to need a technical cert to enjoy diving in Rangiroa.
DuboisP or anyone else, can you specify the CMAS limits for each level of training please?
One of my occasional dive buddies is a BSAC instructor (BSAC being the British branch of CMAS) and he has told me about being trained and certified to do what might be called "deco lite," i.e. what most non-Europeans would consider "tec" dives but what in Europe is commonly considered sport/recreational diving and is often done with a big single cylinder or a maybe a pony bottle. So in Europe they do get "a little bit pregnant," to extend that metaphor.
However I vaguely recall my BSAC buddy showing me his BSAC tables and saying that there are fairly strict CMAS/BSAC limits on depths and maximum duration of mandatory deco stops (like 8 or 10 minutes) at that 2- or 3-star "sport diver" level of training.. So DuboisP or other Europeans, can you specify what those limits are? I'm curious, and also I think it would add some useful context to the issues discussed in this thread.
Edit: alewar, just saw your post, but can't read that table. Can you please clarify? Thanks in advance.
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One of my occasional dive buddies is a BSAC instructor (BSAC being the British branch of CMAS) and he has told me about being trained and certified to do what might be called "deco lite," i.e. what most non-Europeans would consider "tec" dives but what in Europe is commonly considered sport/recreational diving and is often done with a big single cylinder or a maybe a pony bottle. So in Europe they do get "a little bit pregnant," to extend that metaphor.
However I vaguely recall my BSAC buddy showing me his BSAC tables and saying that there are fairly strict CMAS/BSAC limits on depths and maximum duration of mandatory deco stops (like 8 or 10 minutes) at that 2- or 3-star "sport diver" level of training.. So DuboisP or other Europeans, can you specify what those limits are? I'm curious, and also I think it would add some useful context to the issues discussed in this thread.
Edit: alewar, just saw your post, but can't read that table. Can you please clarify? Thanks in advance.
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DuboisP
Contributor
rivers, you're right; my memory had failed me. Thanks for the correction.
CMAS and BSAC had a falling-out and went their separate ways in the late 90s.
But BSAC was part of CMAS way back in the mid-90s when my buddy got trained and certified in accordance with what were then CMAS standards standards which allowed "sport divers" to do limited stage decompression diving.
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CMAS and BSAC had a falling-out and went their separate ways in the late 90s.
But BSAC was part of CMAS way back in the mid-90s when my buddy got trained and certified in accordance with what were then CMAS standards standards which allowed "sport divers" to do limited stage decompression diving.
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