Decisions, Decisions

[Arnaud]

...but this horse has been beaten to death.

Fastex can break. Rock climbers don't use tanks...

 

[jonnythan]

blacknet once bubbled...
Hello,

How is a quick release a failure point? Rock climbers have been quick releases back before scuba was just sci-fi, they are still using them today. Also every military in the world uses quick releases.

Ed

Huh? You'll never see a plastic fastex buckle anywhere on a rock climber's body, rope, or anchors. Well, if the climber is carrying a pack the pack might cinch closed with a plastic buckle....

As was pointed out to me, plastic buckles are great... until you're carrying around 100 pounds of tanks and plates with them. I work at an outdoor store and several people come in every day looking to replace plastic buckles, and those are just the ones used on packs to hold the top down. There's a reason we have a big tub of them behind the counter.

The point is that it would suck to be getting your transpac on on a boat and have one of the thin plastic pieces snap under the 100 pound strain, and have your doubles fall four feet onto the toe of the person behind you. Their day of diving would be over, your day of diving would be over, and you might put a nasty dent in some of your expensive gear. Even worse, it might break under the strain on the surface but hold closed so you don't notice.. then when you're 20 minutes into your dive it falls apart and suddenly your BC and tank are trying to float up away from you while you're hanging on with one arm.

 

[jonnythan]

BTW, any climber (ice, rock, or otherwise) worth his salt will tie his pack directly into a rope and haul it up pitch by pitch, thus bypassing plastic buckles at all Besides, even serious backpackers rarely have more than 30 or so pounds in the pack, and that's distributed pretty evenly between the two shoulder straps and the waist strap..

 

[caveseeker7]

blacknet once bubbled...
'Failure points' show some real world examples of equipment failures because of the current design.

Arnaud, the biggest failure point in any piece of dive gear is the diver! And, in some cases, those around him. :upset:
You say Fastex can break ... I say webbing can be cut.

boogie711 once bubbled somewhere else...

Even aside from in the water - conduct this simple test.

Lay down a nylon belt with stainless steel buckle, beside an OMS harness with a fastex buckle.

From 18 inches, drop an LP104 on both buckles.

Now dive.

Any questions?

How about this test: I cut your webbing with my dive knife. Now dive.

Or this: From 18 inches, drop an LP104 on your bottom timer. Now dive.
Then from 18 inches, drop an LP104 on your pressure gauge. Now dive.
Always a favorite, from 18 inches, drop an LP104 on your 2nd stages. Now dive.
How about from 18 inches, drop an LP104 on your foot. Now dive.

Quick release buckles can fail, so you wouldn't dive them?
How about your regulator, your bottom timer and its battery, your dive light?
Maybe you shoild snorkel with a mechanical depth meter, an automatic watch and a chemical light stick. You know, keep it failsafe.

 

[blacknet]

Hello,

so replace the quick release with stainless steel buckels, i'm sure dive-rite would be more than willing to make those changes. Also how often do these quick release clips break on the transpac? I suspect this whole spill is smoke and mirrors to push a specific product or type of product. There is more than one solution that will work in any given situation. We have more than 1 car to choose from and many will fit the bill for any given purpose. If we treated vehicles like some of you treat dive gear then we would still be driving model T's, or VW's around and doing everything with them.

Besides how many metal backplate have cut, frayed and stranged the webbing, THAT is a FAILURE POINT and an accident waiting to happen. How many cases of broken quick releases have you heard about on the transpac? How many times have I heard ppl complain about the sharp edges on the back plate? Folks it's simple, a backplate is not a universal tool to be used in every situation so stop treating it as such. It may fit the bill in YOUR situation but that may not fit the bill in MY situation or HIS situation or HER situation.

Ed

 

[jonnythan]

blacknet once bubbled...
Hello,

so replace the quick release with stainless steel buckels, i'm sure dive-rite would be more than willing to make those changes. Also how often do these quick release clips break on the transpac? I suspect this whole spill is smoke and mirrors to push a specific product or type of product.

Besides how many metal backplate have cut, frayed and stranged the webbing, THAT is a FAILURE POINT and an accident waiting to happen. How many cases of broken quick releases have you heard about on the transpac? Folks it's simple, a backplate is not a universal tool to be used in every situation so stop treating it as such. It may fit the bill in YOUR situation but that may not fit the bill in MY situation or HIS situation or HER situation.

Ed

Have you ever seen a stainless steel quick release buckle...? Why bother with them when you don't have to? Get a normal harness without any buckles and you'll never have to worry about it.

BTW, frayed webbing is not really a failure point. It's not nylon cloth, it won't rip from a small tear. The backplate would need to cut through almost all 2 inches of webbing for it to think about breaking. Those are continuous linear filaments... even a very small amount of them will hold up the plate quite well. Rips do not spread on that type of webbing. If you dive it long enough for it to get that ripped and you keep diving it, you deserve for it to break anyway. At the very least you shouldn't be surprised.

BTW I have no interest in pushing any sort of product... I simply realize that some plastic buckles offer no benefit to my kit and I can get a far, far more robust system by eliminating them. I like having reliable gear.

How many cases of broken quick releases have you heard about on the transpac?

I don't know a single person with a Transpac, but I know a lot of people who have gear with plastic buckles. Every one of them has had to replace that type of buckle at least once, including myself. That also includes the people who come into my store day in and day out to buy new ones to fix broken purses, backpacks, and stuff sacks.

How many times have I heard ppl complain about the sharp edges on the back plate?

Then you either buy a backplate with properly rounded edges on the webbing slots, or you round them yourself with a file.

 

[blacknet]

jonnythan once bubbled...
BTW, frayed webbing is not really a failure point. It's not nylon cloth, it won't rip from a small tear. The backplate would need to cut through almost all 2 inches of webbing for it to think about breaking. Those are continuous linear filaments... even a very small amount of them will hold up the plate quite well. Rips do not spread on that type of webbing. If you dive it long enough for it to get that ripped and you keep diving it, you deserve for it to break anyway. At the very least you shouldn't be surprised.

BTW I have no interest in pushing any sort of product... I simply realize that some plastic buckles offer no benefit to my kit and I can get a far, far more robust system by eliminating them. I like having reliable gear.

Dude your telling me frayed webbing has the same tensile strength of a non-frayed unit of the same? Please share in whatever your smoking. Any frayed material is a failure point as it'sstructurally weakend, beyond the scope of the product design thus causing a safety hazard.

Besides we're not talking about YOUR situation, we suppose to be talking about a decision the original poster has to make. Like with all other threads of this nature the topic was blown out of context into some lowly squabble over something stupid. How many in the last 25 post has even ask what enviroment(s) they will be using this new bc in? How many have even bothered to question if the mentioned products is going to help them out.

Ed

 

[ElectricZombie]

Sebastian once bubbled...

Before I start, I plan on getting into wreck and maybe cave diving in the near future and money doesn't play an issue in this case.

If you are going to stick with diving and pursue it further, a backplate/wing setup is the best option.

At the last shop they also had a Halcyon BP/Wing. At first glance it didn't really appeal to me but once I got home and went through the brochure it is starting to appeal more and more to me.

So my question is how does the Halcyon BP/Wing compare to the other back-inflate bc's mentioned above

The BP/wing setup is much better BC all around. It will do anything you could ever require it to do while diving. It's versitile and will last forever.

Is it more stream lined (if i'd buy the halcyon i will probably attach two pockets)?
The BP/wing is the most streamlined BC you can buy...period. I would mount some pockets on my wetsuit rather than the BC.

How comfortable is a backplate on land after a dive?
What I'm also looking at is the fit in a way that it is not lose.

The BP/wing is extremely comfortable in or out of the water. I always wear at least a 3mil with mine and it is very comfortable. The BP/wing is a custom fit. It is not sloppy or lose.

For example with rental jacket bcd I use at the moment I notice that when I spin around the tank shifts a bit on one side therefor pulling me into this direction...which one has a better stability or are they equal?

BP/wing is much better. It is the most stable rig around. Fits like a glove.

I would just buy a Halcyon BP/wing setup if I were you. It will do everything you need and will last forever if you take decent care of it.

 

[jonnythan]

blacknet once bubbled...


Dude your telling me frayed webbing has the same tensile strength of a non-frayed unit of the same? Please share in whatever your smoking. Any frayed material is a failure point as it'sstructurally weakend, beyond the scope of the product design thus causing a safety hazard.

:HAHAHA:

Make a belt with a Fastex buckle and some nylon webbing. Cut the webbing halfway across. Attach one end to towing hitch and the other to a telephone pole.

Let us know how it goes

 

[caveseeker7]

blacknet once bubbled...
How many have even bothered to question if the mentioned products is going to help them out.

Embarrasing as it is, you're right. Waking up to some whining about QR buckles again certainly got the best of me ... .

Sebastian, sorry about that. Here some thoughts:
- You want a bladder that fits your diving and environment. For a single tank you need less lift than with twins and stages. Even more so if you dive wrecks in the ocean, which can be rather nasty. A couple of #s of lift will help keep your head out of the water when the sea kicks up. Yet if you don't
need the additional lift avoid it because it'll increase drag.

- My preference for single tank is an oval bladder, 30#-40#. Either Zeagle or DiveRite will allow you to install different size bladders.

- Of the BCDs you mentioned I know the DiveRite, an excellent BC. I still own a Ranger, also a good one, though I don't use it much anymore. Either company has very good customer service, at least here in the US. You might want to check into that for Oz. As for the Zeagle Tech, looks like it's okay ... I played with the idea of getting one with a 35# bladder for a while for travelling since the Ranger is bulkier. The semi-rigid back makes it a bit more stable than "normal" BCs, but still less than a bp. So I settled for an aluminum one to go.

- The TP II works well when used with a bp, so that's an option, too.

- As far as stability is concerned, you can't beat a backplate. No tank wobble here. Same goes for maintenance, it's simple. Changing bladders takes about a minute. Streamlining depends on what you mount and how you mount it. It can be as little and as good as you want or need.

- A ss bp will allow you to drop a couple of pounds off your belt. Comfort out of the water depends on what you're wearing. Obviously hiking several miles to a dive spot in a T-shirt isn't gonna be particulary cozy. In a drysuit with thick underwear you barely notice a difference. The weight is evenly distributed against your back, and on your shoulders. Some padding on the straps might help if you don't need much exposure protection where you're diving.

- Most of all, if you get a chance try any system you consider buying first. They are different, and need to be right for you. Nobody else.