Deciding the future of goliath grouper

[Megaptera]

Dear ScubaBoard,
The future for the survival of goliath grouper will be decided November 15-17, 2010 in Key West Florida. This is the last population assessment meeting before the final report is sent to the Fishery Councils, and NOAA Fisheries in December 2010. The meeting is open to the public.

Goliath groupers are the largest grouper fish in the Atlantic Ocean. Due to overfishing and near extinction, the species has been protected in US waters since 1990. Today, Florida is the only place in the world where goliath groupers are still found and we can SCUBA dive with them, as well as visit them during their spawning aggregations. Elsewhere in the western Atlantic, the species is ecologically extinct. Pretty much gone. Meeting this magnificent grouper, this gentle giant in its natural habitat is the dive encounter of a lifetime.

There has been much pressure from certain sectors of the recreational fishing community to re-open the fishery. Their arguments are scientifically unfounded. I suggest you review my section of "five myths about goliath grouper" (google teamorca web site)

In previous meetings, the interests of the SCUBA diving community have been largely ignored. Goliath groupers are worth more money alive than dead, and diving to see them provides a sustainable income for many dive shops and affiliated business (hotels, restaurants, etc) in Florida. Remember that a goliath grouper can be seen many times through its more than 40 years of life expectancy.

Please, consider to attend the Key West meeting, and let your SCUBA diver voice be heard. Let the conservation continue for this endangered and fragile giant.

Details on meeting location and times can be found at the Federal Register of 6 October 2010. Basic information:
Location: Key West Marriott Beachside hotel, 3841 N Roosevelt Blvd.
When: November 15, 2010: 10 a.m. - 8 p.m., November 16-17, 2010, 8 a.m. - 8 p.m.

 

[DennisS]

Reopen the fishery with sustainable limits. It could end up being a lottery permit system to insure sustainable harvest.

 

[Megaptera]

Reopen the fishery with sustainable limits. It could end up being a lottery permit system to insure sustainable harvest.

Dennis,
when a species has reached commercial extinction, as in the case of goliath grouper, sustainable fishing is not possible. The life history of goliath grouper (long life, late sexual maturity, extreme dependence on disappearing habitats-mangroves and coral reefs-, spawning aggregations, unafraid of divers), make this species extremely susceptible to overfishing. Considering ongoing poaching, catastrophic deaths (fish kills due to cold water, red tides), and limited critical habitat (healthy mangroves and coral reefs), today's goliath grouper population in Florida cannot survive any "sustainable" catch limits.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

You have ZERO evidence that this species of grouper can not survive any catch or mortality.

People should spend their efforts trying to preserve and protect the ecosystem, not one single species that provides some emotional connection.

If someone proceeds from the premise that the fish will NEVER reach a sustainable population, then they will ignoire all scientific data that contradicts this simplistic assumption.

The fact of the matter is that the species IS expereincing SIGNIFICANT mortality from fishing and at the same time is expereincing an incredible population rebound.

The jewfsih steal so many desirable fish off of fisherman's lines that they have become a huge problem. Many fisherman will deliberately hook and KILL then discard the jewfish because they perceive that the species is too abundant, is eating all their prime fish and the herd needs to be thinned. There is a strong feeling in the fishing community that if the regulatory agencies will not change the rules back to allow some take, then they will just have to take matters into their own hands.

I for one, would prefer that jewfish are not hauled to the surface and left to suffocate, floating belly up as they drift off.


I would much prefer a very SMALL, highly regulated fishery that was based on a tag system that generated money for research of the species.

I strongly believe that promoting the idea that this species needs protection forever, is counter productive, results in more mortality and is wasteful of the resource.

We should be happy WHEN the species is once again abundant enough to support some take. I don;t know enough to say that we have reached that level of abundance, but we certainly are approaching it rapidly.

No fisherman wants jewfish populations decimated as they were just 20 years ago.

 

[SubMariner]

You have ZERO evidence that this species of grouper can not survive any catch or mortality.

People should spend their efforts trying to preserve and protect the ecosystem, not one single species that provides some emotional connection.

If someone proceeds from the premise that the fish will NEVER reach a sustainable population, then they will ignoire all scientific data that contradicts this simplistic assumption.

The fact of the matter is that the species IS expereincing SIGNIFICANT mortality from fishing and at the same time is expereincing an incredible population rebound.

The jewfsih steal so many desirable fish off of fisherman's lines that they have become a huge problem. Many fisherman will deliberately hook and KILL then discard the jewfish because they perceive that the species is too abundant, is eating all their prime fish and the herd needs to be thinned. There is a strong feeling in the fishing community that if the regulatory agencies will not change the rules back to allow some take, then they will just have to take matters into their own hands.

I for one, would prefer that jewfish are not hauled to the surface and left to suffocate, floating belly up as they drift off.


I would much prefer a very SMALL, highly regulated fishery that was based on a tag system that generated money for research of the species.

I strongly believe that promoting the idea that this species needs protection forever, is counter productive, results in more mortality and is wasteful of the resource.

We should be happy WHEN the species is once again abundant enough to support some take. I don;t know enough to say that we have reached that level of abundance, but we certainly are approaching it rapidly.

No fisherman wants jewfish populations decimated as they were just 20 years ago.

Several of the assertions you make as if they are fact, yet you quote no authoritative sources. From where are you getting your information?

I even more alarmed by "Many fisherman will deliberately hook and KILL then discard the jewfish because they perceive that the species is too abundant, is eating all their prime fish and the herd needs to be thinned." You speak as if you have witnessed this violation of a protected species on a first hand basis. Have you reported these incidents?

FYI, they are no longer referred to as "jewfish", but are "goliath groupers".

 

[DennisS]

FYI, they are no longer referred to as "jewfish", but are "goliath groupers".

A lot of people still refer to them as Jewfish and I don't think the name on Jewfish creek has been changed-yet

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Several of the assertions you make as if they are fact, yet you quote no authoritative sources. From where are you getting your information?

I even more alarmed by "Many fisherman will deliberately hook and KILL then discard the jewfish because they perceive that the species is too abundant, is eating all their prime fish and the herd needs to be thinned." You speak as if you have witnessed this violation of a protected species on a first hand basis. Have you reported these incidents?

FYI, they are no longer referred to as "jewfish", but are "goliath groupers".

As long as they keep the Slippery Dick name, I still call them jewfish. It is not now, or ever was, a derogatory term.

I don't think I made any comments that are not truthful. Ask some of the FWC officers in the keys if they don't see bloated jewfish floating from time to time. And yes it is a fact that certain people are killing jewfish because of their perception of them being a nuisance.

It makes little sense to me that we allow commercial and recreational fisherman to hammer all the other species of grouper and continue to provide unlimited (or more specifically indefinite) protection to the jewfish. I dive with them every week and have seen the explosion in their population. It is an incredible success story, but public perception of the species as a problem and really needs to be considered when formulating a management plan.

It is my stong opinion that if the management plan is "do nothing forever", then there will be a growing resentment and since the ability to enforce these laws on the water is very limited, then we have a huge problem. When the regulated public has total disregard for a particular regulation and the resources for enforcement are extremely limited, you have a recipe for disaster.

A big part of the problem is that the fishing public is mislinformed about the diet of the jewfish. Many people feel that the jewfish eat all the desirable snapper and grouper. There has been very limited feeding studies and the dissemnation of the results of these studies has been very weak. Fisherman know that jewfish hammer any fish on a line and they naturally assume that this is their natural prey.

From my understanding this type of predation is atypical and opportunistic, but you cann't tell that to a redneck fisherman who looses every fish while fishing the wrecks. A lot more money needs to be expended for the study of jewfish and public outreach to fisherman is also desperately needed.

I personally know of several fisherman who poach jewfish occasionally. They fillet on board and then eat the meat. I don't approve of the practice, but I think it makes a little more sense than killing them and allowing them to float off and be wasted.

If people lobby that this fish can NEVER be taken, this will result in growing resentment and more mortality than if fisherman feel that the regulators are doing a reasonable job of managing this species and are treating it as a grouper rather than a manatee.

Hell, some boaters are resentful of manatees and they really DO need protection forever!

 

[SubMariner]

As long as they keep the Slippery Dick name, I still call them jewfish. It is not now, or ever was, a derogatory term.

Maybe if you're not Jewish, which you obviously aren't. I am. Get it yet?

Strangely enough, I don't know of any "Jesus fish" or "Christian fish"....

I don't think I made any comments that are not truthful.

It makes little sense to me that we allow commercial and recreational fisherman to hammer all the other species of grouper and continue to provide unlimited (or more specifically indefinite) protection to the jewfish. I dive with them every week and have seen the explosion in their population. It is an incredible success story, but public perception of the species as a problem and really needs to be considered when formulating a management plan.

That's the point. You make comments as if they are a statement of fact. The fact is that there are several other species of commercially/recreationally taken fish that have federal & state mandated limits that include when they can be taken (if at all) & how many can be taken. You are talking about seeing a particular species in your particular area. But what about elsewhere throughout the Gulf States & the Caribbean?

It is my stong opinion that if the management plan is "do nothing forever", then there will be a growing resentment and since the ability to enforce these laws on the water is very limited, then we have a huge problem. When the regulated public has total disregard for a particular regulation and the resources for enforcement are extremely limited, you have a recipe for disaster.

Again, you making statements that infer that you have actually witnessed this behaviour of people disregarding the law. Yes or no? And if yes what are you doing about it?!

A big part of the problem is that the fishing public is mislinformed about the diet of the jewfish. Many people feel that the jewfish eat all the desirable snapper and grouper. There has been very limited feeding studies and the dissemnation of the results of these studies has been very weak. Fisherman know that jewfish hammer any fish on a line and they naturally assume that this is their natural prey.

From my understanding this type of predation is atypical and opportunistic, but you cann't tell that to a redneck fisherman who looses every fish while fishing the wrecks. A lot more money needs to be expended for the study of jewfish and public outreach to fisherman is also desperately needed.

A fish higher up in the food chain than what you have caught will "hammer any fish on a line". I have personally witnessed anything from small sharks to barracuda, to assorted groupers do just that. The only point that makes is the logical one of not keeping what you catch in the water on a string.

I personally know of several fisherman who poach jewfish occasionally. They fillet on board and then eat the meat. I don't approve of the practice, but I think it makes a little more sense than killing them and allowing them to float off and be wasted.

Ok. NOW you've finally answered the question. You are aiding & abetting people breaking the law. And obviously not reporting it.

Nice touch with the "well, it would have been dead anyway, so why can't they kill it" defense BTW. Really illustrates your informed POV.

 

[DennisS]

Strangely enough, I don't know of any "Jesus fish" or "Christian fish"....

Does waspfish count?

 

[Lorenzoid]

Maybe if you're not Jewish, which you obviously aren't. I am. Get it yet?

Strangely enough, I don't know of any "Jesus fish" or "Christian fish"....

Well, as a Jewish guy, you've apparently never visited Israel, where there is a very commonly consumed fish is known as the "St. Peter's Fish," which I believe is known in the US and elsewhere as tilapia. All the tourist restaurants on the coast peddle the St. Peter's Fish. I'm Jewish. I ate plenty of St. Peter's fish when I visited Israel. I have no problem with the goliath grouper's Hebe alias, as it was called that for a long time. By the way, when you visit Egypt to dive the Red Sea, there's a great soup they make with an okra-like vegetable they call Jew's Mallow. I didn't find that offensive, either.

Back on topic, I have not researched the data on the goliath grouper/jewfish population, so I am not qualified to take this poll. Unless one has researched this independently, taking the poll without any knowledge other than what is stated on the poll itself, i.e., the hugely biased words "sustainable" and "unsustainable," is pointless and won't yield any useful result here.