Deciding on new equipment / how much lift?

[whodunit68]

so...here I am this new diver (13 in) and already seeing the value of owning my own. Of course every dive shop owner I speak to works to convince me how important it is not to rent again. I am feeling the unbelievable overwhelming sense of drowning in a sea of choices when it comes to equipment. ScubaPro, Sherwood, Aeris, Oceanic, Cressi-Sub....frankly, I'm sure any decent regulator from any "big" name will be a fine starter regulator. Surely, I don't need top of the line at 13 dives.
Each time I walk into a shop, I know I'm going to pay more and my real problem is that I'm paying more for "expertise" when in some cases, like most people, the LDS staff or owner is advising towards his or her own pocketbook. I don't mind this except I don't want to overpay for equipment just for better service and we don't even know which it is. Frustrating.
Sure, developing a relationship with my LDS would help but that won't happen until I dive with them and each time they've been asking me to buy something else.
So, I try another...same cycle.
BCs? There's the lift thing. (btw, this is my real question). All the gadgets are great and will matter...I can handle back bladder versus jacket/vest but how do I decide how much lift I need?
How do I know what type of first stage I need/want?
How do you decide?
Thanks...Steve

 

[Down4Adive]

being a new diver myself I have a lot of the same questions and I am certainly no authority on the subject. the conclusion I came to is that while i dont need to spend top dollar on the best of the best equipment out there, I also don't want to be back in the dive shop in six months or a year buying it all again. If you buy good equipment in the beginning it will grow with you and last a long time. you will end up saving money in the long run by spending a little more now.

Like you said, you can get good equipment from all of the big brands. Each of them has their fans and detractors, opinions are like.......well you know. In the end it comes down to what equipment fits and works best for you.

Will any of your local shops let you try the equipment or have some of the gear you are looking at available for rent? It would be worth checking out. If so, try them out and see what feels best to you.

4wiw - I have tried scubapro, zeagle, and oceanic and have liked them all. It turned out that for the most part the oceanic equipment fit me, my diving and my budget the best.

 

[whodunit68]

hey Down4...appreciate the feedback and the thoughts. I probably should have posted this in the new diver forum and meant to but it is directly related to equipment. Either way, I welcome thoughts. I agree with your call about going with a "pick-em" style approach but like you, I don't want to go back in 6 months for all new. A bigger problem? Since I'm brand new, I have no idea what type of diving I'll do. There's better equipment for cold water diving (I live in Jersey) and other styles/types for warm water. I travel over 150K miles/year for work (leaving for FL tomorrow and Brazil next Monday) and want to be able to do both. So, a couple guys have told me about the "hybrid" approach to start. Good idea? Well, yeah except it's not going to be the best for me to learn on in cold water and same for warm. Oy.

 

[cool_hardware52]

.I can handle back bladder versus jacket/vest but how do I decide how much lift I need?

Steve,

Any BC needs to meet two criteria; be able to float your rig at the surface with a full cylinder if you ditch it, and be able to compensate for the maximum change in buoyancy of your exposure suit.

Add up the components of your "rig", using the buoyancy, not "dry weights"

For example Steel HP 100 tank, ~-10 lbs, Typical regulator ~-2, and lets say your BC has "integrated weights" and you have 12 lbs in the pockets. Your rig will be about -24 lbs with a full tank.

The "other" requirement is the need to compensate for the compression of your wetsuit, or possible failure of a drysuit.

Wetsuits vary widely, but it is unusual for a 7mm suit to be more than about 22-24 lbs positive for people of normal stature. You can of course test your suit by rolling it up and throwing it in the water, add lead until it sinks.

Most BC's have a great deal more capacity than almost any diver needs.

I design, manufacture and sell BackPlates and wings. A BP&W s a type of modular BC. This allows matching the wing (the inflatable portion of the BC) to the application. We produce wings 13 wings with capacities from 17 to 57 lbs. Depending on the diver's exposure suit and the size and type of tanks used we can closely match the "lift" to the application.

Good luck with your search.

Tobin

 

[Down4Adive]

Steve,

Unfortunately for us, until we get more dives under our belts i don't think there is any way to tell what is going to be just right. There are however a ton of very helpfull people on here with lots of experience to help narrow the choices down.The best we can do is try to wade through the helpfull people (like tobin), the people trying to help (like me) and the people trying to dig in our pockets (like the first lds I went to), in order to make what amounts to an educated guess (hopefully as educated as possible).

A better question might be what features are important in a ............ if I want to dive in a wide variety of conditions ranging from ---- to +++++, taking into consideration that it has to travel on a regular basis.

The water where I live is ,on most days, in the mid to low 50s. The people I dive with use the same equipment here and in warm water (with, i assume, some weight adjustment for the lack of an exposure suit). One in particular does quite a bit of traveling for warm water diving and has never said anything about his gear being a problem. I know his bc is a scubapro nighthawk. his reg is a scubapro also but I'm not sure which one. Nothing out of the ordinary.

good luck. I'm sure you will enjoy whatever you get. after all, it has to be better than rental gear right

BTW - let me know what you get if you have a chance.

 

[herman]

Steve,

................A better question might be what features are important in a ............ if I want to dive in a wide variety of conditions ranging from ---- to +++++, taking into consideration that it has to travel on a regular basis.

The water where I live is ,on most days, in the mid to low 50s. The people I dive with use the same equipment here and in warm water (with, i assume, some weight adjustment for the lack of an exposure suit). One in particular does quite a bit of traveling for warm water diving and has never said anything about his gear being a problem. ....................

While you can pretty much get away with any BC as long as you have enough lift it is really not optimal to use one BC for a wide range of diving. Some BCs pull it off better than others but if you dive a really wide range of conditions, face it, you need at least 2 BCs if you want to be anywhere close to optimally kitted out. IMO most divers have way more lift than they need....and most are way overweighted..... but on average most divers can do pretty well with around 35lbs of lift. That is typically more than is needed in warm water without being too bulky but still enough for most colder diving. Doubles, large steel tanks or other diving may require a good bit more lift but as a general rule 35lbs will do.

 

[Dive Rite]

BCs? There's the lift thing. (btw, this is my real question). All the gadgets are great and will matter...I can handle back bladder versus jacket/vest but how do I decide how much lift I need?
How do I know what type of first stage I need/want?
How do you decide?
Thanks...Steve

Hi Steve,

Check out our Solution Finder, you will find all sorts of useful information about gear selection, how much lift you need, what to look for in a regulator and many other answers to common questions about dive gear. This should arm you with a little bit more knowledge.

Have a look at the following regulator reviews from ScubaLab, as they review a number of regulators from a variety of brands. Reg Review 2007 Reg Review 2008

There are a great many choices out there and it can be confusing. Dive Rite offers a Recreational Diver BCD Package, which is perfect for a single tank open water diver.

If you have any further questions don't hesitate to contact us.

Best,
Ag

 

[TSandM]

When we bought our original regs, the tech at our LDS told us that, really, there aren't any BAD regulators out there (obviously, regulators that had frequent, serious malfunctions would a) get a bad rap very quickly and b) put the manufacturer out of business with lawsuits). We bought a middle-of-the-road regulator for our first set, and are still using them, and are still happy with the choice.

One thing I wish I had known before buying regulators is that some are "environmentally sealed" and considered to be better choices for diving cold water than others. I have had one free-flow incident, which was probably from 1st stage freezing, and it's a stressful thing to have happen. (Our singles regs aren't cold water regs.)

Regulators DO breathe differently -- My husband's Zeagles don't breathe as easily as my SPMK25/S600s do -- but the price increment for the improvement is really substantial, and unless you are going to spend a lot of time deep, probably isn't worth it.

Tobin's already given you the best information about BC lift. What he didn't say is that lift is not one of those things where "more is better". Having a BC with a lot more lift than you need makes it more likely that you will get air trapping in it and have problems fine-tuning your buoyancy.

The most important thing about a BC is that it has to FIT well -- and unfortunately, that's fit well UNDER the water. It can often be difficult to figure out how well something is going to fit while diving, if you're walking around with it on in the shop (often without even a tank in it). You also need to evaluate a BC in the exposure protection you're going to be diving in, and if you do cold water diving at home, and warm water diving on vacation, you may not be able to fit well in the same BC in both places.

Also, evaluate things like D-rings and pockets in your exposure protection (and preferably with a tank in the BC). Sometimes those things look great in the shop, but in practice, they are difficult to reach or open.

There is a bewildering variety of manufacturers and products out there, and shops DO want to sell what they carry. But a good dive shop should at least give you good advice as to which of their products is most suitable for your diving (although, unfortunately, too many just try to push the high-end, high-profit items, whether they work for you or not).

Renting a time or two can give you an opportunity to try some different items, but rental gear is rarely the quality that you might buy for yourself.

Have fun with it -- Half the enjoyment is the anticipation and the infinite possibilities!

 

[herman]

.........................................................
Regulators DO breathe differently -- My husband's Zeagles don't breathe as easily as my SPMK25/S600s do -- but the price increment for the improvement is really substantial, and unless you are going to spend a lot of time deep, probably isn't worth it.
.............................................

Very true but it is worth noting that often times it's how good your reg tech is as opposed to the actual mechanics of the reg itself. A great reg tuned by a less than great tech can often times breath worse than a cheap reg tuned by a tech who knows what he is doing AND actually cares about how it preforms.

 

[whodunit68]

this is all fantastic info and I sincerely appreciate you all being so generous with the information. I was in 3 shops today...for no other reason than to see if I could learn. I was upfront with them all letting them know that I'm just learning and shopping. they were all quite helpful. There's so much apparent great equipment out there and I really wonder. The worst part is that I'm a gadget freak and I saw a $2K computer that no way in the world I need but sure as heck would love to have that on my wrist (and it's frickin' wireless?!?!). (sidenote: remember, I'm new at this so a wireless underwater computer really *is* a big deal ). So, one of the key things I'm learning here - and I thank you for the specific answers - is one of my big questions about lift. I have a much better view on this than before. I guess it boils down to whether I buy something close to a hybrid (like I was told the Sherwood Avid jacket style BC and reg are or the ScubaPro Mk25 with the BC) or I choose something more fitted for cold water and rent in the tropics until I want to buy again or what. The Dive Rite equipment and the Deep See BP&W look appealing as well.
If I can swindle someone in to going to Dutch with me this week, I may just bite the bullet and buy one of the two I just mentioned and see how she goes.
Thanks again!
Steve