Deceptive LDS practices..RANT...

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Hello,
Ya know ya just gotta choose your battles I guess.
just yesterday I plunked down 2500.00 at my LDS for a DUI CLX 450 dry suit. Now I could have purchased the same item off the net for about 2200. But my LDS showed me the suits I was interested in, let me try them on , spending over 2 hrs. with me overall, measured my head and neck, for my hood will trim my seals, and handle any problems I may have with the suit for me. Can I get that from the net purchase...No. But on the other hand fins, masks, gloves,lights, retractors, undergarments, wetsuits come to my door in a brown box...feel me!

Les jus get wet!!!!!!! D-Diver :crafty:










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RonFrank:
We read a LOT about supporting the LDS, the ethics of purchasing scuba gear online, and how our LDS's are a dying breed because of OUR misplaced purchase habits, and how the LDS has OUR best interest at heart.

Here's an example of a practice that my LDS uses that is upsetting. This LDS offers students a 20% discount on equipment.

While in the store looking at some booties, I noticed something odd. The booties I was interested in were not only MUCH higher priced vs. online stores (not just LP), I realized they were priced well OVER MSRP. In fact 20%!!

I started looking a bit at other items that I was familiar with, and after doing a few comparisons where I could find the MSRP listed, ALL personal gear was marked up about 20% BEYOND MSRP.

Rather than actually discounting personal gear for students (which I guess is the Lionshare of their retail biz), they mark the stuff up, and sell the gear under the false impression that students are getting a deal.

I was rather disgusted to learn this.

The OW classes require nothing in the way of gear for confined water. However the OW dives do NOT include ANY personal gear, and they strongly encourage EVERYONE to purchase their gear from them to *take advantage* of the big discount. They do rent this stuff, but discourage this strongly as you NEED this stuff at a minimum.

The instructor even did the don't purchase online bit. Basically he said anything purchased used outside a LDS was dangerous (EBAY), and anything online NEW could not have a waranty (false) and was most likely a fake. He used the famous example of the scubapro reg with non scubapro parts (urban legend or truth??).

On the up side, I do really like the facilities, and instructors at this LDS, and plan on continue to use them for education. However I'm none to thrilled with their retail store, and they do a sell on their equipment during the training which based on how the instructor went over it, I'm sure is a requirement from the DS management.

I have news for the diving public, THIS LDS is alive and well, and doing a great biz based in part on equipment mis-information in a setting where the instructors words are taken as fact.

Most of the students in the class I did purchased their personal gear from the LDS to the tune of about $300-$350 for masks/fins/snorkel/booties. I wish we had a ScubaToys here!!!

Ron
 
Otter:
Which manufacturer's website did you go to and check prices? Or were they 'other online DS sites' that are comparing their version of MSRP to their price?

MSRPs are readily available from many sources, sometimes from the manufacturers themselves (here or here, for example) or via press coverage (such as this or this).

What's your point?
 
lairdb:
MSRPs are readily available from many sources, sometimes from the manufacturers themselves (here or here, for example) or via press coverage (such as this or this).

What's your point?
One word the Uk prices are no guide dive gear here is very cheap in comparison to UK prices, and on top of that they also have loads more taxes to pay over the pond. I KNOW
 
lairdb:
I rather suspect he's looking at MSRP, not MRRP, for two principal reasons: first, that I've seen exactly the same practice in my area (yes, from M_S_RP), and second, that MRRP are per se (Dr. Miles Medical Co. v. John D. Park & Sons Co., 220 U.S. 373, Albrecht v. Herald Co., 390 U.S. 145, State Oil Co. v. Khan, 522 U.S. 3) unlawful and when examined have been held to be illegal vertical price-fixing arrangements except under extremely stringent circumstances (United States v. Colgate & Company, 250 U.S. 300 at 307), leading to the conclusion that it's fairly unlikely for him to have found a list of explicit MRRPs.
Cite all the lawsuits you want, all I gotta do is open up most manufacturers pricelists and show you MRRP in practice.

The only valid MSRP would be one quoted on from a manufacturer (as an MSRP, not some other price). The price listed on any internet site, even Diver's Supply and Diver's Direct have no guaranteed correlation to a manufacturer's retail pricing.
 
I can appreciate all the comments made here. I've been in all the shoes you talk about. Consumer, Instructor, Manufacturer, Retailer and Distributor. Today I own a professional dive center AND I own a manufacturing/distribution company. We operate with BOTH a brick and mortar retail store AND an active webstore. What I am about to share with you might just help you better understand how all of this works.

As a dive retailer we embrace a few lines of equipment from a few major manufacturers, in our case AquaLung, APEKS, US Divers, SeaQuest Suunto, Cochran, USIA Luxfer, Xcel, etc. We make committments to these companies because they make certain committments to our customers. The committments they make to our customers is that they will have inventory, maintain parts, provide us with training, continue to work on research and development, and most important provide us (retailer) with no question asked customer service. Did you know that Aqualung requires an authorized dealer to maintain a 30 day return policy? That they will provide parts for free for life when serviced by an authorized dealer ? In exchange for that they ask us to maintain a certain price level on certain products and enforce fire sale discounting from happening. Nevertheless you can buy AL products online from a company in NY. How they get them I dont know, but they do. However the largest known discounter in California (SC) switched to Aqualung about 18 mos ago and maintains MSRP pricing (within 10%) Why ? unprecedented service.

Here is an example of the service we can pass to a consumer on many products. This past weekend I was in Laguna Beach diving with some of our clients. A girl was wearing a wet suit for the 3rd time. The thread came loose and frayed off. It did not hamper her use of the suit, but it was unsightly. I had her come in on Monday morning and handed her a new suit. Why ? 1 - I can and value the customers 2. I know that DeepSea would replace the suit on my say so. Her entire inconvinience ? 5 minutes time. On another note a client had his tanks filled someplace else while off in Cali diving. When I went to fill the tank (i always sniff) the air did not smell right. I did not have time to clean the tank on site but gave him 2 rentals for the weekend at no charge. We cleaned the tanks, found water in them, serviced the valves and he picked them back up on Monday. No charge..... why? Because we can.

Margins -- In the garment industry they work on 200% margins, in the furniture business its 200%, restaurant 150%, Diving industry, travel = 5-10%, training 25%, equipment sales 35-50% at best, tanks, laugh at 18%. The minimum net value it takes to run a business is about 35%-40% so........ some is at 60 some is at 20 and at the end of the day ........ after all the goodies .... we make a living. But ....... this all comes with service, performance, customer relationships, honesty, and a fair deal.

Now to the other side. Our on-line business. 1. We do not sell many of our prime lines there, mostly because we embrace the face to face concept of those sales. However we do have on our website over 500 items that the average dive shop does not stock. Why ? 1. we know how to source products, 2. we know how to buy them, 3. we know what you want 4. we know how to stock, service and support those products. 5. we know most dive shops can't have everything.

We price our products on the web at what I like to belive is a reasonable price for the item. We list MSRPs based on average prices around the country, then we price them at what we need to earn on a product to make it worthwhile to fill the 3000 sqfoot warehouse we have for it all. But when you want a 22inch hose for this and a 9 inch hose for that, and a valve part to fit this, and a sensor to fit that, and a tank band to fit that old set of 72s ...... guess what ? We have it. Online business amounts for approximatley 2% of overal dive industry sales. It amounts for about 15% of my company's sales. Oh and one more thing, We stock everything we list on our website. Unlike many on-line sites that order as you order, we stock it all. I have at least 3 clients who are other online stores who order 1 and 2 of an item as they sell it on their site. You wait 10 days from them, you wait normally no more than a day from us.

So what's the answer ? Professional retailers are embracing both methods. Consumers drive the way we do business, you want it both ways, a retail operation for quality service and the ablity to purchase items on-line. To have both you as the consumer need to embrace both methods. In the end everyone wins.

Regards,
 
JS1scuba:
I can appreciate all the comments made here. I've been in all the shoes you talk about. Consumer, Instructor, Manufacturer, Retailer and Distributor. Today I own a professional dive center AND I own a manufacturing/distribution company. We operate with BOTH a brick and mortar retail store AND an active webstore. What I am about to share with you might just help you better understand how all of this works.

As a dive retailer we embrace a few lines of equipment from a few major manufacturers, in our case AquaLung, APEKS, US Divers, SeaQuest Suunto, Cochran, USIA Luxfer, Xcel, etc. We make committments to these companies because they make certain committments to our customers. The committments they make to our customers is that they will have inventory, maintain parts, provide us with training, continue to work on research and development, and most important provide us (retailer) with no question asked customer service. Did you know that Aqualung requires an authorized dealer to maintain a 30 day return policy? That they will provide parts for free for life when serviced by an authorized dealer ? In exchange for that they ask us to maintain a certain price level on certain products and enforce fire sale discounting from happening. Nevertheless you can buy AL products online from a company in NY. How they get them I dont know, but they do. However the largest known discounter in California (SC) switched to Aqualung about 18 mos ago and maintains MSRP pricing (within 10%) Why ? unprecedented service.

Here is an example of the service we can pass to a consumer on many products. This past weekend I was in Laguna Beach diving with some of our clients. A girl was wearing a wet suit for the 3rd time. The thread came loose and frayed off. It did not hamper her use of the suit, but it was unsightly. I had her come in on Monday morning and handed her a new suit. Why ? 1 - I can and value the customers 2. I know that DeepSea would replace the suit on my say so. Her entire inconvinience ? 5 minutes time. On another note a client had his tanks filled someplace else while off in Cali diving. When I went to fill the tank (i always sniff) the air did not smell right. I did not have time to clean the tank on site but gave him 2 rentals for the weekend at no charge. We cleaned the tanks, found water in them, serviced the valves and he picked them back up on Monday. No charge..... why? Because we can.

Margins -- In the garment industry they work on 200% margins, in the furniture business its 200%, restaurant 150%, Diving industry, travel = 5-10%, training 25%, equipment sales 35-50% at best, tanks, laugh at 18%. The minimum net value it takes to run a business is about 35%-40% so........ some is at 60 some is at 20 and at the end of the day ........ after all the goodies .... we make a living. But ....... this all comes with service, performance, customer relationships, honesty, and a fair deal.

Now to the other side. Our on-line business. 1. We do not sell many of our prime lines there, mostly because we embrace the face to face concept of those sales. However we do have on our website over 500 items that the average dive shop does not stock. Why ? 1. we know how to source products, 2. we know how to buy them, 3. we know what you want 4. we know how to stock, service and support those products. 5. we know most dive shops can't have everything.

We price our products on the web at what I like to belive is a reasonable price for the item. We list MSRPs based on average prices around the country, then we price them at what we need to earn on a product to make it worthwhile to fill the 3000 sqfoot warehouse we have for it all. But when you want a 22inch hose for this and a 9 inch hose for that, and a valve part to fit this, and a sensor to fit that, and a tank band to fit that old set of 72s ...... guess what ? We have it. Online business amounts for approximatley 2% of overal dive industry sales. It amounts for about 15% of my company's sales. Oh and one more thing, We stock everything we list on our website. Unlike many on-line sites that order as you order, we stock it all. I have at least 3 clients who are other online stores who order 1 and 2 of an item as they sell it on their site. You wait 10 days from them, you wait normally no more than a day from us.

So what's the answer ? Professional retailers are embracing both methods. Consumers drive the way we do business, you want it both ways, a retail operation for quality service and the ablity to purchase items on-line. To have both you as the consumer need to embrace both methods. In the end everyone wins.

Regards,

Joel, your policies are great. I wish all LDSs had the same, or just close, policies. Unfortunately, they don't. I think that's why the Internet is taking over. It'd be great to have an LDS that offered all that service. But when the service isn't that great and the prices are twice what they are online, what's the common choice?

On a personal note, we've been up your way before (but didn't know about your shop). Next time we will stop there rather than the other one. We weren't impressed with them at all. Do you run a boat on the lake?
 
My LDS may not be the cheapest in town, but I like their policies. I went through 4 masks before I got one that I was satisfied with. They didn't have to take each of them back, but they did, and made sure I was happy with it. They may not always have everything in stock, but if I want something and order it they will loan me the same item for free until it arrives. I recently bought a drysuit. It was expedited, no extra charge, and I got a free drysuit orientation dive and free air. Oh, and before I bought it I was loaned one to try in the water, for free. I know that sometimes their prices aren't the best (there are other shops in town), but they know me at the shop and we have a certain relationship that I'm not willing to give up just to save a few bucks. Retail is not an easy business, but what you get by going into a shop and getting to know the owner can't be replaced by most internet shops. Besides, I like going to the dive shop, it lets me talk to other divers and get the latest news on what the upcoming dive is, dive club activities, find new dive buddies, etc.

OW students are sold packages of gear/training, just training, or training/rental gear. There are many packages to choose from, based on preferences and the amount you're willing to spend. I think it's understandable that they may have some big mark-ups here because, let's face it: a good percentage of the those OW students will rarely dive again after their OW weekend, and if they do, it will be on a tropical vacation where they won't need to buy anything from their LDS.
 
LP is the best, do they charge for shipping when you need your tanks filled? ;)

The shop I instruct for had an unhappy customer recently. He saw his mask online for 34 dollars cheaper than he paid for it at the shop. Highway robbery he says and he's so upset he just spent 5000 dollars on an air compressor.

He sure showed them.

Most shops charge double what they've paid for an item. That's pretty normal. Factor in expenses and they aren't making that much and if they sold it for what an internet garage sells it for they'd lose money.

I've seen lots come in, try gear on and then buy it online. We still treat them good when they bring their gear in for service but, we don't treat them special. They pay full boat for service work and we charge a normal fee for inspections instead of free. They don't get to test their gear in our pool for free and we don't assemble it for free.

One guy bought his Sherwood reg online and they had put it together backwards.
 
Whoopty-doo is right. That is the markup on TOP of MSRP which I'm guessing includes about a 100% markup (based on cost) to begin with.

As for student discounts, in this case I agree, it's basically just MSRP. I have no issue with that, just don't tell them that they are getting some great deal when in fact, they are paying MSRP.

Ron

archman:
20% markup?? Whoopty-doo, I figure that's the AVERAGE for most dive shops. I've known places go well up to 30%, heck I know of one that exceeded even THAT.

As for discounts on OW students, that's a big fat fib. For many shops, those newbie divers represent the bulk of cash sales. The only "deals" you'll typically get are slightly reduced rates on complete dive packages.

OW students in most dive shops can be compared to cruise ship tourists hitting a seaport. It's open season on your pocketbook.
 
Otter:
Which manufacturer's website did you go to and check prices? Or were they 'other online DS sites' that are comparing their version of MSRP to their price?

I am not going to rehash what has been said through hundreds, if not thousands of posts on here about online vs. LDS....That being said, there are many factors that go into the retail price of a product including, but not limited to...product cost (heavily tied to volume -- small shops PAY MORE than higher volume shops), overhead etc...

As with most durable goods, margins are quite high...much of the the gear you buy now will last 10-15 years or longer. I have hundreds of dives on my $30 booties...so the guy 'grossed' $15 (100% margin) 4 years ago....same with my mask...where gasp he might have made $30.

One specific case was on O'Neill products, the MSRP is listed on the manufacture website. In a couple other cases, the MSRP was listed in dive magazines, or in online product reviews... is that important?

As I have said, I have no issue with what they want to charge. I would respect it if they just said, we don't compete with the net, and expect to pay MSRP when you purchase from us. Do NOT tell me, hey we are giving you a deal IF you purchase TODAY (did I mention the *discount* was for a limited time) when in fact the *discount* is a result of padding MSRP, and then reducing it back to MSRP.

I'm sorry, I'm not into retail games, and generally don't support stores who use them. I admire honesty, not deception.

This LDS is hardly in trouble. They certify 500+ divers a year (closer to 1000 this year based on what the instructor said), and the facilities are very nice, and well run. I have spent over $400 with them in a short time (classes), and plan on doing AOW, and Nitrox as well there. Let's not cry a river over this poor diveshop, the owners drive MUCH nicer cars then I do, and I make a good living...

Ron
 

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