Death at Dutch Springs

[chillyinCanada]

So, he had a light with him then? Sorry, couldn't resist. My bad.

 

[TSandM]

If, in fact, the scooter played a role in this, it would speak to perhaps someone who had never had any training in using a scooter.

First off, scooters should be weighted very close to neutral, if not very slightly positive (so that, if you lose it, it ends up on the surface where it might be found!).

Second, although a flooded scooter is very negative, the diver should be aware that the proper procedure at that point is to disengage from the scooter -- one might shoot a bag to mark where it is, but it is not reasonable to attempt to surface with a flooded scooter. (At least the aluminum tube scooters used by tech divers.)

 

[dumpsterDiver]

If, in fact, the scooter played a role in this, it would speak to perhaps someone who had never had any training in using a scooter.

First off, scooters should be weighted very close to neutral, if not very slightly positive (so that, if you lose it, it ends up on the surface where it might be found!).

Second, although a flooded scooter is very negative, the diver should be aware that the proper procedure at that point is to disengage from the scooter -- one might shoot a bag to mark where it is, but it is not reasonable to attempt to surface with a flooded scooter. (At least the aluminum tube scooters used by tech divers.)

I've only ever used scooters that sink. You do not want one floating away in the current. If it sinks, you drop it, grab the lobsters and then pick it up and go. In the ocean, it is almost always easier to manage objects that will sink and stay where you left them, rather than float off to the surface... cameras, knives, lights, guns, tools and scooters.

 

[TechDeep]

So, he had a light with him then? Sorry, couldn't resist. My bad.

And a backup.....right?

 

[redacted]

Yeah, my objection to the conjecture/hypothesizing in this thread was the "build" aspect of things like one person asks "Was he diving solo?" and someone else says "Supposed he didn't have a light?" Then a third person says "So, he was solo diving at night, without a light?" Then fourth person says "If he was solo diving without a light then..."

That's not "accident analysis" that's rumor mongering.

So you figured that the best way to counter that was to withhold the information you had?

 

[DiverGirl1972]

Yeah, my objection to the conjecture/hypothesizing in this thread was the "build" aspect of things like one person asks "Was he diving solo?" and someone else says "Supposed he didn't have a light?" Then a third person says "So, he was solo diving at night, without a light?" Then fourth person says "If he was solo diving without a light then..."

That's not "accident analysis" that's rumor mongering.

I don’t think anyone was rumor-mongering. That has a negative connotation and would imply that the intent was to maliciously spread rumors, which I do not believe was the case. Overzealous and misguided speculation in the hopes of being able to learn from a tragedy? Sure.

Withholding information that would better direct the discussion toward the truth certainly isn't going to help stop this from happening. Perhaps if someone is too emotionally attached to a situation and/or is unwilling to assist in providing information that may help ensure a meaningful dialogue for learning purposes, they should just avoid reading the thread…

 

[RJP]

So you figured that the best way to counter that was to withhold the information you had?

I thought one way to counter it was to suggest that people not build one conjecture on top of another and another.

Since I had/have no first-hand information... I had/have none to withold

Overzealous and misguided speculation in the hopes of being able to learn from a tragedy? Sure.

How does one learn from "overzealous and misguided speculation"?

To be clear - as I've tried to be - I am not averse to the general sort of hypothetical discussions that typically happen on A&I. Neither am I specifically or emotionally attached to this particular incident. It's the unchecked willingness to co-mingle multiple unfounded speculations together that I don't care for. Not just in this case; it happens all the time.

As further relates to "witholding information" I personally believe that, in situations such as this, not sharing information that I do not personally know to be true is more prudent than sharing it.Especially given the dynamic of "well, if I add that speculation to that other speculation, and throw in my own speculation, on top of an assumption... it looks like that guy/buddy/dive op/facility/instructor/manufacturer/agency was an idiot/to blame/responsible.

This dynamic...

a.) Provides no insight or understanding as to the current incident
b.) Provides no meaningful opportunity to learn

 

[openmindOW]

RJP, a couple of simple questions were asked of you. Perhaps you missed the post; that would certainly be understandable. So I'll recap them here.

1. Do you dive at Dutch springs? Have you ever been diving at Dutch springs?

2. Do you know any employees or owners of Dutch?

Thank you, Sir.

 

[redacted]

Don't worry, all of the the things that actually happened will be enough to horrify you. There's really no need to add made-up stuff to the list of senseless things that occurred here.

Since I had/have no first-hand information... I had/have none to withold

The quote above makes it pretty clear that you thought you had pertinent information. Do you somehow see a difference in your withholding information if it is first hand or not?

I thought one way to counter it was to suggest that people not build one conjecture on top of another and another.

How does one learn from "overzealous and misguided speculation"?

Have you ever seen a suggestion like that ever work in this forum? In the absence of all the facts (or even most of the facts) hypotheses, suppositions, and speculation are the catalysts for learning lessons even when they have little to do with the incident at hand. Usually the only folks trying to prevent that are either holding a broom or the corner of a rug.

 

[RJP]

RJP, a couple of simple questions were asked of you. Perhaps you missed the post; that would certainly be understandable. So I'll recap them here.

1. Do you dive at Dutch springs? Have you ever been diving at Dutch springs?

2. Do you know any employees or owners of Dutch?

Thank you, Sir.

Feel free to PM me if you want to play 20 questions.

Or better yet, publicly clarify the intent/hypothesis/veiled accusation behind your questions right here on the forum. I want to make sure I'm directly addressing your concerns. (My ability to discern what people mean - what they wrote notwithstanding - has already been called into question in this thread.)