For PfcAJ or one of the other experienced Florida cave divers, what kind of gas planning would you use in setting up a traverse through a siphon like this? 1/4s? 1/6s?
Dangerous psychology- Diving beyond one's training
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PfcAJ
Contributor
Simple fractions like that aren't a good plan for a siphon traverse. Too many variables. Catfish to Manatee is pretty short (relatively), though.
To do it right, you've gotta figure out the distance, sac rate, avg depth, swim rate against the flow, with the flow, gas needed for 2 divers to share gas from max pen (farthest distance from an exit) and go from there. No easy answer, unfortunately.
To do it right, you've gotta figure out the distance, sac rate, avg depth, swim rate against the flow, with the flow, gas needed for 2 divers to share gas from max pen (farthest distance from an exit) and go from there. No easy answer, unfortunately.
Thanks. I haven't been to Florida yet, and flow in Mexico is usually more of a surprise than anything else.
billgraham
Contributor
Without in any way defending the sloppy overhead skills and gear-selection choices shown in the videos Britton has posted, this argument is among the most obnoxious of those I regularly see advanced to "educate" a diver with whose risk choices the "wiser" poster disagrees.
No diver, whether "properly" trained or otherwise, has any right to expect rescue from anyone outside their immediate team should things go wrong. Nor do they have a right to expect someone else to come get their corpse if they die. Personally, I think leaving them in there would serve a number of useful functions, though in certain sites I'm sure the sheer aggregate volume of bodies and gear would eventually cause problems.
But no rescuer has any obligation to go in after someone reported missing/overdue/dead, and those who choose to do so are making their own risk assessment and doing the rescue/corpse recovery of their own free will. It is freely choosing to do a risky dive out of the goodness of their hearts that makes rescuers like Edd Sorensen such heroic bads. To the extent the argument is that there are public servants whose job requires them to conduct rescue/recovery dives, I will remain unpersuaded until we start forcibly conscripting people into those jobs.
Any claim that "proper" certification negates, rather than reduces, the chance of needing rescue or recovery is laughable, so if potentially putting would-be rescuers/recovery divers at risk was really something we had a moral obligation to consider, we should all be avoiding any dive with the potential for their involvement. And that would really cut down on available dive sites.
My guess is you're lucky enough to have never been around a diving fatality, search or rescue. What happens is that someone comes up screaming for help (best case scenario I suppose), let's say the missing diver's family is having a picnic on the sand and they start crying and screaming. Edd was in the water in something like 15 minutes and found the diver totally out of gas. Zero. Another minute and he would have been dead. You can ask him about the specifics. Do you think he could have said "Ah, no, I haven't had lunch and I'm really not feeling it right now, call the police . . ."? Do you think any police department, anywhere, has a certified cave diver on staff? I'd be surprised if there are any in the world. If you're unlucky enough not to have a Sorenson nearby, and you die, who do you think is going to come and retrieve your body? The police can't do it--they don't have anyone qualified. It's always the local cave divers who get that grim task. I can tell you that my friends were called upon to do one earlier this year and the details would put you off your food for a while.
Smart tech instructor dude Steve Lewis wrote a really good article about this issue. I'm paraphrasing here but his point was that these are not "accidents" where some UNKNOWN danger causes something unexpected. He argues that "misadventure" is a better term because the untrained/undertrained divers KNOW they are not supposed to be there and choose to ignore the obvious danger (and grim reaper sign telling them to stop).
Cave diving training absolutely reduces the possibilty of an "accident", I'm sure the statistics bear this out and you can go look them up or whatever. As for misadventures, I fear for my friends who are called upon to save the foolish or recover their bodies. Unless you've experienced a grieving family begging you to go look for their dead loved one, I'd back off the suggestion that it's easy to just say no. The cave divers have worked for YEARS to get access to many of these sites that were closed because untrained people went in there and killed themselves. Everytime someone dies, the response is that cave diving is unsafe and it should be regulated/banned etc. The non-diving public doesn't understand the difference between trained and untrained divers in caves, but you all should be able to grasp it.
What is the resistance to the training? Y'all are eager to plunk down $2,000 to go to Cozumel, do a week of gumby diving and drink tequila, and learn nothing. Take that same money and do something constructive with it, and every aspect of your diving will improve. But whatever you do, please stay out of caves until you get some training. The cave divers are going to have to come get you, your family won't sleep until your body is recovered, trust me on this.
Post script, Britt, I took a quick look at the Manatee vid on youtube. No redundant air source, looks like yoke regs, no long loses that I could see, no technique, etc. All you'd have to do is knock that yoke off on the ceiling and you both would have probably died. Please, pursue the training.
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Many of us will push our own personal limits. I suppose that if I didn't, I would have never tried to take my first step, or have attempted to ride a bicycle. Some of us are more "risk takers" than others. That said, the 'acceptable level of risk' usually falls within the 'measured and prudent' category (rather than the 'unnecessary and foolhardy' one).
Although I have undertaken dives that many would see as risky, they fall into the 'acceptable risk' area to me. People often assess the actions of others based upon their own training and experience (which isn't necessarily the experience of the person making the dive). I suppose that this is a normal reaction, as you can't be expected to understand something that's foreign to you.
If the Diver doesn't employ the accepted 'best practice' policies into the dive plan, s/he is likely operating in the foolhardy category. It is always prudent for a diver (regardless of training and experience) to utilize these practices where they can be reasonably employed. Failure to do so subjects the divers to unnecessary risk and substantiates a re-evaluation of the dive plan.
Many years ago, I learned cave diving from Dr. George Benjamin, a cave diving pioneer and inventor of the Benjamin Manifold. George wasn't a 'certified' Instructor, diver, or cave diver. That didn't stop him from guiding Jacques Cousteau and the team of Calypso through the Blue Holes of Andros Island. Interestingly enough, not one member of the expedition was 'certified' to dive the site (which are considered by many to be the most hazardous underwater caves in the World). This didn't mean that best practices weren't used. I suppose that's my point.
Regardless if a diver is 'certified' or not, I believe it only reasonable to employ best practice where possible. Today, divers have a tremendous advantage over those in the past. A tremendous amount of courses are available to help the diver undertake whatever type of diving that they may wish to pursue. 'Certification programs' are the 'accepted' way of learning any diving skill. After all, the majority of the diving public doesn't have a George Benjamin in the wings willing to show them how...
Regardless of how you learn, apply good judgment and practice. We all know the saying about old bold divers...
Although I have undertaken dives that many would see as risky, they fall into the 'acceptable risk' area to me. People often assess the actions of others based upon their own training and experience (which isn't necessarily the experience of the person making the dive). I suppose that this is a normal reaction, as you can't be expected to understand something that's foreign to you.
If the Diver doesn't employ the accepted 'best practice' policies into the dive plan, s/he is likely operating in the foolhardy category. It is always prudent for a diver (regardless of training and experience) to utilize these practices where they can be reasonably employed. Failure to do so subjects the divers to unnecessary risk and substantiates a re-evaluation of the dive plan.
Many years ago, I learned cave diving from Dr. George Benjamin, a cave diving pioneer and inventor of the Benjamin Manifold. George wasn't a 'certified' Instructor, diver, or cave diver. That didn't stop him from guiding Jacques Cousteau and the team of Calypso through the Blue Holes of Andros Island. Interestingly enough, not one member of the expedition was 'certified' to dive the site (which are considered by many to be the most hazardous underwater caves in the World). This didn't mean that best practices weren't used. I suppose that's my point.
Regardless if a diver is 'certified' or not, I believe it only reasonable to employ best practice where possible. Today, divers have a tremendous advantage over those in the past. A tremendous amount of courses are available to help the diver undertake whatever type of diving that they may wish to pursue. 'Certification programs' are the 'accepted' way of learning any diving skill. After all, the majority of the diving public doesn't have a George Benjamin in the wings willing to show them how...
Regardless of how you learn, apply good judgment and practice. We all know the saying about old bold divers...
I'm not saying right or wrong, but all those people you mention who do searches and body recoveries do it by choice. There's a reason lost people are left for dead on the mountain in the Himalayas. It's too dangerous to the search team to make it worth the effort to recover them. IF cave diving took this same attitude, perhaps we'd see less stupid human tricks with respect to cave diving. Perhaps not. Let's not try to imply that anyone is OBLIGATED to go on a search or body recovery though. Is it the right thing to do? Sure, sometimes. Is it mandated? Absolutely not.
I think the only person I've seen imply that training doesn't reduce the risk is Britton, though she may just be keeping her hackles up out of pride at this point rather than actually believing that. (I don't know, that's just the impression I'm getting from her posts.) Dr.Lecter simply said that training reduces but doesn't negate the risk of a rescue/recovery effort being necessary. To imply anything else is disingenuous at best.
As an aside, I know Tech divers tend to prefer DIN regs and you state something about that in your post. In an effort to learn what I don't know, why is it that you consider that a point worthy of note? Is there a safety concern with using yokes in an overhead that I don't understand? Is there really a likelihood of "knocking that yoke off on the ceiling"? Mine are generally very difficult to loosen under pressure, I just can't see the likelihood of doing it "by accident" without some other very significant issues happening first.
Kotik - The biggest precaution we take is arming ourselves with knowledge. We don't go into anything not knowing what we are getting into. We carefully studied that cave before entering and knew all we needed to know. You're not telling me anything I don't know about the siphon. I don't appreciate the tone you imply I used about "well, gosh, we almost ran out of air". We were nowhere near running out of air and were way conservative. I simply added the note about using more air while exerting more energy coming out so that divers who read that and don't have any cave experience will know that is something they should be aware of. Trying to reduce risk for others...
No, my son hasn't been in the caves, but he's done alot of other types of diving with us. Lately he prefers surfing over anything else, so hard to get him to go diving period...
Fjpatrum - I never said training doesn't reduce risk. I simply said it comes in many shapes and sizes and not always in the form of a formal class.
Well, you all won't have to worry about us dying in any caves for the next couple weeks. We are leaving to go skiing so I won't be around for the rest of this party! Happy Holidays!!!
No, my son hasn't been in the caves, but he's done alot of other types of diving with us. Lately he prefers surfing over anything else, so hard to get him to go diving period...
Fjpatrum - I never said training doesn't reduce risk. I simply said it comes in many shapes and sizes and not always in the form of a formal class.
Well, you all won't have to worry about us dying in any caves for the next couple weeks. We are leaving to go skiing so I won't be around for the rest of this party! Happy Holidays!!!
A certain segment, perhaps even a large segment of the cave divers who post on line can come across as being a little judgmental and egotistical. It goes with the territory. What is less obvious though is that most cave divers start out underestimating what cave diving involves, then take Cavern, Intro, and Full Cave classes, and then sooner or later realize that cave diving is a life long learning process where there is always something more to be learned. So many of them understand your position as to one degree or another they were in a very similar position at some point in time in terms of either desire or in actual fact, but wisely made a decision to seek training.
And, there are also two types of cave divers:
1) Those who show up, dive for thrills or to get an adrenaline fix, then after a year or two get bored and move on to something else, or alternatively have something go wrong on a diver and kill themselves, or scare themselves out of the sport.
2) Those who are more or less control freaks who manage the risk to the nth degree and view cave diving as a very well planned and carefully executed activity in an environment where the risks are well known and well mitigated. They tend to dive for years and in many cases for decades until they die....of natural causes.
The first category just doesn't get much respect and isn't really taken seriously, both due to their attitude and due to their short tenure - one way or the other.
Unfortunately your statement below places you firmly in the first category in large part as the portion in red simply isn't true, and your stating it's true won't make it so. In addition, the section in blue illustrates the grave underestimation of the risk involved and your gross over-assessment of your level of skill and ability to handle a wide range of environmental challenges and equipment failures.
"We only take risks we are comfortable with and we would never put ourselves in a position that increased the liklihood of our deaths without taking every precaution we possibly could, short of just staying on the couch! We were never in a position of danger and we were very competent in our diving ability."
Your firm belief in what you've said won't make the inevitable failure or emergency that you will someday encounter in a cave any more survivable. Believe it or not, no one in the cave community will take any pride, satisfaction or comfort in knowing that if you or your spouse dies in a cave that, at the end, having exhaled your last breath and clawing at the ceiling, you realized what we've said was both entirely accurate and offered in a spirit of true concern.
This next statement worries me the most as despite the knowledge and cautions you have been given, you still intend to continue diving at the level you are currently diving - apparently not yet realizing that the dives you are doing are more than sufficient to kill you with even a simple failure or an errant kick of a fin at the wrong time in the wrong place.
"...but rest assured, we will experience a great deal more instruction and guidance before we venture into any cave dive more involved than what we are currently diving."
If you really like cave diving - and we all share that common love - then get proper, formal, cave training before you enter another cavern or cave. You've been incredibly lucky to date, but it won't last and you have far too much to lose.
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... but watching the video, that clearly is not the case. You prepared for this dive as though your bailout option was going to the surface ... which would not have been possible. You had no redundancy. And if someone ran out of air, you would not have been able to exit the cave sharing air, given the equipment you were using. It's simply not designed for that type of diving.
In all human endeavors there are those adventuresome few who push the limits. Many times they succeed, and we admire them for their accomplishment. Sometimes they have those "I'll never do that again" moments ... and if they're lucky the worst that happens is they end up in an Epic Fail video on YouTube. In cave diving ... in almost every instance ... failure means death. And in the majority of those cases, it's because people who thought they had every risk accounted for hadn't really considered all the risks ... or even the most obvious ones.
I don't want to discourage you ... you sound like a nice person who really enjoys diving ... but I do want to encourage you to rethink your approach to those dives. There are good reasons behind everything that cave divers are taught, and every piece of equipment they use. I encourage you to educate yourself about those reasons before deciding that you've considered all the risks and taken all the precautions ... because, given the skills and equipment shown in the videos, if you or one of your companions had a significant failure inside that cave, your chances of coming out alive would not be good.
The last person Edd rescued had the exact same rationalizations you did. Her father, who took her into the cave, thought they had all the skill and precautions they needed. They quickly found out otherwise ... and although they didn't venture in very far, except for an extraordinary circumstance that had Florida's version of Superman available to save her, that young woman would be dead ... and her father would be spending the rest of his life with the knowledge of hindsight that he had killed her.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
Just a word about the "rules" of cave diving, the ones that Britton doesn't seem to know about when she says they followed them. The main rules were developed by a man named Sheck Exley. He devised them after an analysis of the pretty large number of cave diving deaths that had occurred since the first divers started exploring caves. He determined that all of those deaths could have been prevented if the divers had observed a handful of protocols. Since then, it is generally accepted that the only person to die in a cave while following that handful of protocols was the victim of a cave-in. It is important to note that not everyone who violates those rules dies. The majority live. Violating the rules simply makes it much more likely that you will die; it does not make it a certainty. So you violated the rules and lived. Congratulations! I wish you continued success in your battle with the law of averages.
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