BTW, sorry you thought I meant that you were actually purchasing a potion of a cylinder manufacturing company. You inferred incorrectly from my metaphor.
DAN missed the boat ...
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Oh, as Jack Hana observed, "about enough to recite the Lord's Prayer."Okay, now so that is funny. I spilled my OJ into my eggs.......
After breakfast I have to go out and fill my new pony bottle with 18/45 and then calculate how many breaths I am going to get at 170'......also have to pick up a shorter hose for my primary......
2 outstanding drills that can easily be added to an OW course- heck, any standard course- to drive home the importance of good buddy skills! I hope more than a few instructors are paying attention to this thread & picked up on these ideas...
I have donated air 3 times in real world situations in 2 years. Two were with recreational OOA divers. Neither were my buddy (they could not find or catch theirs) and both mugged me for my primary. The third was a more technically oriented diver with a freeze flow issue who I saw coming and had a long hose primary waiting for him.
I agree that training needs to reflect real life and the Cavern and Intro Cave drills were on the order of the instructor rather violently taking the primary as an OOA signal with mask flooding an occasional no extra charge option. That made sense to me as if you can deal with the worst case the civilized version is no sweat.
It occurs to me though that perhaps one reaosn why buddy teams work better in a cave environment is that the limits of the relationship are also discussed. For example in a cave I am not expected to save you if it means losing my continuous guideline to the surface and if you are off the line and lost, I will search for you using a variety of techniques, but I am not expected to do so beyond a point where my ability to get out of the cave is threatened and I am encouraged to very cautious about proceeding with a search beyond a point where my gas would not be adequate to get both of us out in the event I do find you due to the interesting ethical dilemma and interpersonal dynamic that develops.
It works as there is an expectation that each diver be redundantly equipped and trained to a high degree of self rescue (lost line drills, etc) and be willing to accept the consequences of diving in a cave environment. The idea is not to save your buddy at all costs but rather to make your best effort to save them with the resources available short of becoming a multiple fatality statistic.
I don't ever remember that discussion occuring at any point in my open water diving career. The training seemed to stop with an expectation to stay with your buddy and if separated do a brief search and surface, but does not really address what happens next or what your obligation is at that point. Rescue courses address the issue of rendering assistance in circumstances that may put you at elevated risk in temrs fo how to minimize the risk, but that is a slightly different issue.
I agree we need to train buddies to be buddies, but that I think requires that we need to agree on and define the limits. In the DAN case in question, that knowledge may have prevented the diver from re-descending.
I agree that training needs to reflect real life and the Cavern and Intro Cave drills were on the order of the instructor rather violently taking the primary as an OOA signal with mask flooding an occasional no extra charge option. That made sense to me as if you can deal with the worst case the civilized version is no sweat.
It occurs to me though that perhaps one reaosn why buddy teams work better in a cave environment is that the limits of the relationship are also discussed. For example in a cave I am not expected to save you if it means losing my continuous guideline to the surface and if you are off the line and lost, I will search for you using a variety of techniques, but I am not expected to do so beyond a point where my ability to get out of the cave is threatened and I am encouraged to very cautious about proceeding with a search beyond a point where my gas would not be adequate to get both of us out in the event I do find you due to the interesting ethical dilemma and interpersonal dynamic that develops.
It works as there is an expectation that each diver be redundantly equipped and trained to a high degree of self rescue (lost line drills, etc) and be willing to accept the consequences of diving in a cave environment. The idea is not to save your buddy at all costs but rather to make your best effort to save them with the resources available short of becoming a multiple fatality statistic.
I don't ever remember that discussion occuring at any point in my open water diving career. The training seemed to stop with an expectation to stay with your buddy and if separated do a brief search and surface, but does not really address what happens next or what your obligation is at that point. Rescue courses address the issue of rendering assistance in circumstances that may put you at elevated risk in temrs fo how to minimize the risk, but that is a slightly different issue.
I agree we need to train buddies to be buddies, but that I think requires that we need to agree on and define the limits. In the DAN case in question, that knowledge may have prevented the diver from re-descending.
Very educational reading this thread...I plan on incorporating some of the suggestions given on stressing the importance of the buddy system so that my students will REALLY understand how critical it is. Seriously, thanks to those sharing their experience and techniques - I believe it is going to help make me a better instructor as well as making my students better divers.
jkling17
Registered
A good buddy is so valuable - and not in the least just from a safety standpoint. I never had an OOA issue (or needed to assist one), but have helped numerous people along the way with navigation ("which way is the mooring / boat / resort / chain / cut / wreck"), and other skills. Even loaning out a spare mask to someone whose mask keeps fogging up can be a big help.
Even back when I was a very novice diver - this is a fair number of years ago - I had to help my "instabuddy" to get her weight belt back on while descending to 80' in Florida. It had never been put together correctly and kept sliding apart while we were going down the line. Unfortunately, I also had to teach her to hold onto the line to keep us steady (we were negatively buoyant) since both my hands were busy trying to adjust her belt - that was fun ... my ears wince just thinking back to it.
Her eyes were as wide as pie plates, and she was close to a panic situation. So, after getting the belt situated (and we're now standing on the bottom) - I checked her gauge (1800) and mine (2700), and asked if she wanted to continue or go up. She gave me a very enthusiastic thumbs up, complete with lots of head nodding - like one of those dashboard figures (not funny at the time though). Ok - that dive was over! We ascended together on the line, and I kept one hand firmly on her BC in case she tried to bolt for the surface (she did not - thank goodness). We did a full 3 minute safety stop. And, then stayed at the surface until she was safely back on the boat. This was my 9th open water dive. Quite the early experience.
I've benefited from buddies time and again - how many cool fish and critters would I have missed if not for that extra set of eyes? LOTS. I have had a buddy cut me out of mono filament line in 10' of vis on a wreck in NJ - thank goodness for good buddies!
Along the way, I've learned that some people just seem to have a temperament that is more well-suited to diving in general and being a good buddy more specifically. It seems likely that both those DAN divers were taught something along the way about the buddy system etc. How to be a buddy and What to do when your buddy disappears - or what what not to do after an emergency ascent.
But bad judgment - I'm not all that sure that more training or more equipment can provide a cure for that.
Even back when I was a very novice diver - this is a fair number of years ago - I had to help my "instabuddy" to get her weight belt back on while descending to 80' in Florida. It had never been put together correctly and kept sliding apart while we were going down the line. Unfortunately, I also had to teach her to hold onto the line to keep us steady (we were negatively buoyant) since both my hands were busy trying to adjust her belt - that was fun ... my ears wince just thinking back to it.
Her eyes were as wide as pie plates, and she was close to a panic situation. So, after getting the belt situated (and we're now standing on the bottom) - I checked her gauge (1800) and mine (2700), and asked if she wanted to continue or go up. She gave me a very enthusiastic thumbs up, complete with lots of head nodding - like one of those dashboard figures (not funny at the time though). Ok - that dive was over! We ascended together on the line, and I kept one hand firmly on her BC in case she tried to bolt for the surface (she did not - thank goodness). We did a full 3 minute safety stop. And, then stayed at the surface until she was safely back on the boat. This was my 9th open water dive. Quite the early experience.
I've benefited from buddies time and again - how many cool fish and critters would I have missed if not for that extra set of eyes? LOTS. I have had a buddy cut me out of mono filament line in 10' of vis on a wreck in NJ - thank goodness for good buddies!
Along the way, I've learned that some people just seem to have a temperament that is more well-suited to diving in general and being a good buddy more specifically. It seems likely that both those DAN divers were taught something along the way about the buddy system etc. How to be a buddy and What to do when your buddy disappears - or what what not to do after an emergency ascent.
But bad judgment - I'm not all that sure that more training or more equipment can provide a cure for that.
DA Aquamaster, you make a very good point in your last post. I have written very strongly in support of the utility of diving as a cohesive buddy pair or team, and I do believe that it is possible to do it and have it work in a wide variety of both pleasant and challenging conditions. But the flip side of it is that there is ALWAYS a limit to what a buddy can or should do, and people need to think about that, because the limits aren't cut and dried. Each of us has to make decisions about how far we'll go, and it's undoubtedly going to vary according to who your buddy is. How far I would risk myself to save Peter is almost certainly farther than I would go for a stranger, as cold as that sounds.
Of course, the bottom line is to have the planning and execution skills not to get in that big a mess in the first place!
Of course, the bottom line is to have the planning and execution skills not to get in that big a mess in the first place!
Kevrumbo
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There was one option/technique that the DAN article did not offer, nor do I think it's entirely taught in BOW courses these days: The victim could have also feathered/modulated his tank valve: opening it when needed to take a breath and then shutting it off, stemming the free-flow momentarily, while making a CESA.
I did it from 6m when my cracking adjustment knob blew-out (and my dive-buddy was nowhere around); it would be harder to coordinate & perform from 30m as in the victim's situation, but is still a viable option. . .
I did it from 6m when my cracking adjustment knob blew-out (and my dive-buddy was nowhere around); it would be harder to coordinate & perform from 30m as in the victim's situation, but is still a viable option. . .
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