DAN missed the boat ...

[ArcticDiver]

There is a real aspect to problem solving that hasn't been explicitly mentioned except in passing; diver currency. We have learned from many other fields that problem solving, especially emergency problem solving becomes very difficult, if not impossible when a person has not recently practiced the procedures.

I have been told by many people that the average diver does about 10 dives per year. That translates to about 10 hours, plus or minus, dive time out of about 8,760 hours in the year. If the person hasn't gotten a good dive foundation so they are well up on the learning curve it is unreasonable to expect much.

So, another action that could have been recommended but wasn't is for the divers to have submitted to some recurrency instruction before taking off on their own.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Well, if the learning curve is that steep for some divers post-BOW, maybe they do need a pony bottle (my preference is to sling it like a stage/deco bottle) like the DAN article suggests, as well as work on Team Diving Skills like others here in this thread have suggested. If a novice diver feels more comfortable carrying a pony because of the detrimental "Same-Ocean-Buddy" Scenario, then go ahead and do so. . .

Again for the newbies out there, if on single tank, feathering/modulating the tank valve is a solution to the unfixable 2nd stage free-flow problem at depth (with your Buddy nowhere to be seen); and as last resort, if all breathing gas is expired from the tank, suck & exhale whatever you have left in your BCD/Wing as you CESA on up. . .

C'mon Bob, even you could've proffered that solution instead summarily blaming the victim for supposed 'bad skills and poor decision making', and then indicting the article's author and DAN for not really addressing the root cause of the problem, which we all know is inadequate BOW fundamentals.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Well, if the learning curve is that steep for some divers post-BOW, maybe they do need a pony bottle (my preference is to sling it like a stage/deco bottle) like the DAN article suggests, as well as work on Team Diving Skills like others here in this thread have suggested. If a novice diver feels more comfortable carrying a pony because of the detrimental "Same-Ocean-Buddy" Scenario, then go ahead and do so. . .

Again for the newbies out there, if on single tank, feathering/modulating the tank valve is a solution to the unfixable 2nd stage free-flow problem at depth (with your Buddy nowhere to be seen); and as last resort, if all breathing gas is expired from the tank, suck & exhale whatever you have left in your BCD/Wing as you CESA on up. . .

C'mon Bob, even you could've proffered that solution instead summarily blaming the victim for supposed 'bad skills and poor decision making', and then indicting the article's author and DAN for not really addressing the root cause of the problem, which we all know is inadequate BOW fundamentals.

You're thinking like a tech diver, Kevin. It's unlikely in the extreme that a typical recreational diver is going to have either the skill or mental bandwidth to reach behind them and continuously turn their tank valve on and off while controlling their buoyancy on an ascent.

That's not a skill that's taught at any level, recreationally ... and personally I'd be hesitant to tell any recreational diver to turn their own tank valve off, for any reason, unless there's another available air supply close at hand. If for any reason they're unable to turn it back on again, they've just created a bigger problem for themselves than the one they already had.

Feathering is a viable free-flow solution for tech divers, and for skilled recreational divers ... but not something I'd want to recommend to a diver who's demonstrated, as you so aptly put it, inadequate BOW fundamentals.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[pwl]

You will never be able to teach some people to be a good buddy. No matter what class you send them to.
[...]
They just didn't CARE. They were in it for themselves. Tell me which class will fix that problem?

i was chatting with an instructor friend about this yesterday; i came to the conclusion that when some (many? most?) people take the OW class, they switch into a "herd" mode, and assume that the instructor (& to a lessor extend DM) will keep everything safe for them.

they therefore don't have an opportunity to practice being a proper, observant & aware buddy, regardless of how often we tell them to check on their own buddy's location very often.

i've even seen boyfriends shoot off through a group leaving their girlfriend (whom they probably pressured into taking the course) struggling behind (for me to collect & calm).

the exercises discussed by Thas' may help, although i don't run classes myself, of course; i despair of getting some people to even understand the concept of being a proper buddy - sometimes despite all the surface discussion, you don't know what they're really like until they're underwater (& disappeared).

i have to agree somewhat with SPG3K - some people just don't *care*.

 

[Bismark]

You're thinking like a tech diver, Kevin. It's unlikely in the extreme that a typical recreational diver is going to have either the skill or mental bandwidth to reach behind them and continuously turn their tank valve on and off while controlling their buoyancy on an ascent.

That's not a skill that's taught at any level, recreationally ... and personally I'd be hesitant to tell any recreational diver to turn their own tank valve off, for any reason, unless there's another available air supply close at hand. If for any reason they're unable to turn it back on again, they've just created a bigger problem for themselves than the one they already had.

Feathering is a viable free-flow solution for tech divers, and for skilled recreational divers ... but not something I'd want to recommend to a diver who's demonstrated, as you so aptly put it, inadequate BOW fundamentals.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Just thought I would chime in here since I was getting ganged up on in the "Deep Air" thread....

Have to agree with Bob on this one. (well I don't really "have to" but I do)

How many OW divers can even reach their valve in single tank set up in cold water? In the last two Fundamentals classes I was running the camera for, of three single tank divers, only one could do it without coaching the first time. All three were able to do so by the end of the class but we are talking about a substantially different cross section of divers by this time. Not trying to say they are better, just that this group has already demonstrated a lot of "desire" to reach that valve by signing up for the class and knowing it was a prerequisite to passing

Managing an ascent and feathering a valve..........from my experience most OW rec divers I know definitely do not maintain the "bandwidth" to do this and even a tech diver better be on top of the power curve. Just my 2 cents

 

[String]

You could get on a boat anywhere and know that the buddy you were assigned would accept a commitment to help, and a commitment to having and exercising the skills required to stay close enough to do that.

And even with all that humans aren't perfect. They aren't robots. No human can be 100% guaranteed to react in a predictable way to any situation.

No more of these stories.

I disagree with that entirely for the above reasons.


FWIW id much rather trust myself than some third party to get me out of trouble and therefore im greatly in favour of redundant air sources.

 

[SparticleBrane]

There was one option/technique that the DAN article did not offer, nor do I think it's entirely taught in BOW courses these days: The victim could have also feathered/modulated his tank valve: opening it when needed to take a breath and then shutting it off, stemming the free-flow momentarily, while making a CESA.

I did it from 6m when my cracking adjustment knob blew-out (and my dive-buddy was nowhere around); it would be harder to coordinate & perform from 30m as in the victim's situation, but is still a viable option. . .

We teach it in our curriculum.

 

[John_B]

If you have already written your buddy off in your mind for any reason (including the cost of the dive or the effort to get to the dive site) then don't do the "dogmatic and politically correct" thing and even pretend you are going to be his or her buddy. If you refuse to look for a lost buddy or you don't believe that "anyone can thumb the dive for any reason" then don't do the "dogmatic and politically correct" thing and even pretend you are going to be his or her buddy. By all means, get a pony bottle (or doubles or rb with bailout or whatever) and just dive solo. At least have the decency to be honest it with the other divers on the charter. If you are just buddying up with someone because the captain won't let you dive solo, you owe it to the other diver to let them know that before you both splash in.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

We teach it in our curriculum.

... but most people don't take 10-week Open Water classes for college credit ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

If you have already written your buddy off in your mind for any reason (including the cost of the dive or the effort to get to the dive site) then don't do the "dogmatic and politically correct" thing and even pretend you are going to be his or her buddy. If you refuse to look for a lost buddy or you don't believe that "anyone can thumb the dive for any reason" then don't do the "dogmatic and politically correct" thing and even pretend you are going to be his or her buddy. By all means, get a pony bottle (or doubles or rb with bailout or whatever) and just dive solo. At least have the decency to be honest it with the other divers on the charter. If you are just buddying up with someone because the captain won't let you dive solo, you owe it to the other diver to let them know that before you both splash in.

Actually, I completely agree with you ... although I tend to believe that people who do that are acting more out of ignorance than dogma.

I have nothing against the pony bottle solution except that it should not be used as a band-aid to mask poor skills and decision-making ... and I don't think a pony bottle would've likely prevented the accident described in the article. If the diver's judgment was that poor in the first place, it only would've given him more rope to hang himself with ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)