DAN missed the boat ...

[Thalassamania]

If a diver really cannot deal with a freeflowing or suddenly OOA reg by simply switching to a pony, they should not be in the water as they almost certainly cannot manage a gas share with a buddy.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that my evaluation of a lot of what I see.

So what do you propose? Since you won't dive with divers like that if you have any other option, two of them will hook up and dive together and that has "disaster" written all over it. I can envision one mugging the other for their reg and both panicking and bolting for the surface with airway firmly closed. My take on it is that a pony would at least reduce the chance of a double fatality.

Sorry, I was unclear ... it's not a matter of "choice" just a matter of "is." I do not often find myself in a situation where I am diving with recreational divers and do not have my own buddy, someone whom I am there specifically to dive with. My "recreational" diving is usually built around diving with someone and a social experience rather than going to a site and being buddied up.

 

[SPG3K]

My "recreational" diving is usually built around diving with someone and a social experience rather than going to a site and being buddied up.

That is clearly the way to avoid the whole problem that caused this 58 page thread.

The few bad eggs I ran into to date are the reasons I will only dive with my semi-perma buddy or people who I have had the time to get to know above water. Joining a local meetup.com group helped a lot, so far.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

My limited diving experience that leads me to want to be self reliant?

I don't understand your point.

Bob's point was that the article didn't address the buddy system, which I believe to be fundamentally flawed in 95% of cases based on human nature.

The only buddy teams that can work are those in which both parties are willing to worry about the safety of the other in earnest. I just don't see that happening in most cases.

Am I wrong? Have you experienced a different environment on your outings with random buddies?

Because every random buddy I've had in my EXTREMELY limited tenure has been far more concerned with their own goals underwater that whether or not I was ok, or even whether or not I was THERE near them.

I should add - again, for clarity - I am simply playing devil's advocate to the problem.

Just because I believe the system is flawed doesn't mean I won't do what I can to make it work, and do it wholeheartedly.

I just don't count on some random person to be there when I need them. But you can bet the bank that if someone free flows underwater or goes OOA, whether or not they knew I was near them, I'll have an Octo extended when they decide it's time to find me.

I just simply do not believe it to be the same in reverse. I believe I will be on my own if that happens, based on what I've seen to date. Maybe someone will surprise me, who knows.

You sound like you have thought this stuff out pretty well and I agree with about everything you've said. You sound way too smart to be a cop

 

[sea nmf]

This is why I am in complete agreement with DA Aquamaster that we need to look at the reality of diving and think what we can do to make the majority of divers safer - and that simply isn't using the internet moan about how all these problems could be avoided if they dived in a unified team and spent thousands of dollars on equipment and a Fundies course.

I'm not sure why you think you have to take Fundie's to be a good buddy??? Just because it is stressed in that class, doesn't mean it can't be stressed in OW.

FWIW, I have not taken Fundies, but have learned much from folks who have.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Some comments were made that a team should not have a follower and a leader. In my experience, it is VERY important to have a leader. The divers can position themselves in various relative positions and follow this prorocol; it does not require one guy to get a mouthfull of fin every 30 seconds. Somebody HAS to be the designated leader or the TEAM will not function well unless the dive plan is extremely rigid.

Again, a pony bottle will not replace good judgement, but it can make the consequnces of mistakes a lot less serious.

 

[SPG3K]

I'm not sure why you think you have to take Fundie's to be a good buddy??? Just because it is stressed in that class, doesn't mean it can't be stressed in OW.

FWIW, I have not taken Fundies, but have learned much from folks who have.

Complete aside - I really want to take the GUE Fundies course. It seems to be a staying point for a lot of the veteran divers.

Back on topic: Buddy Diving should be more than a "Glossary Term" in the OW course material.

Sure, PADI stresses it "Never dive alone." But they never really lay the groundwork for anyone to become a good buddy. There is a lot of room for improvement there. My instructor drilled the importance of being a good buddy into my head.

Would I have had a different instructor, it's largely possible I would have left not caring about it all.

 

[Geoff_H]

I'm not sure why you think you have to take Fundie's to be a good buddy??? Just because it is stressed in that class, doesn't mean it can't be stressed in OW.

I don't think that at all. I know many many good buddies and excellent divers who have never heard of it, let alone taken it!

But a lot of what I read on this board from people who have taken Fundies is in the gist of "if you dive like me, you wouldn't have that problem". While they are right, I don't believe that it is a helpful comment nor a realistic solution for most divers.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't think that at all. I know many many good buddies and excellent divers who have never heard of it, let alone taken it!

But a lot of what I read on this board from people who have taken Fundies is in the gist of "if you dive like me, you wouldn't have that problem". While they are right, I don't believe that it is a helpful comment nor a realistic solution for most divers.

How 'bout this ... if you follow the things you were supposed to have learned in a PADI or NAUI Basic Open Water class, you wouldn't have that problem.

Let's not turn this into a GUE thing ... the skills I'm talking about I learned from my YMCA Open Water instructor. And every agency out there will tell you ... in your Open Water student materials ... that you're supposed to dive that way.

OK ... if they're gonna promote it, they should teach people how to do it.

That's all I'm saying.

DAN promotes the buddy system heavily ... so why are they telling people that the way to fix a broken system is to prepare to dive like a solo diver?

I don't buy it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Geoff_H]

How 'bout this ... if you follow the things you were supposed to have learned in a PADI or NAUI Basic Open Water class, you wouldn't have that problem.

But people do lose their buddies, in real life, in the real world. You can't just have the view "don't lose your buddy" and then have the attitude "if you lost your buddy, then you weren't diving as you were taught". That is why people see this view as dogmatic rather than pragmatic.

OK ... if they're gonna promote it, they should teach people how to do it.

That's all I'm saying.

That's the whole argument - you're saying the training isn't good enough. We've done the whole length/breadth of training thing to death hundreds of times and the reality of commercial pressure and non-diver demand for short Open Water courses isn't going to change anytime soon.

Once people are able to accept that, then it might be possible to accept that a pony bottle would have been some help to some divers on some occassions... even if better training and a better buddy would have been MUCH better.

DAN promotes the buddy system heavily ... so why are they telling people that the way to fix a broken system is to prepare to dive like a solo diver?

Because insta-buddies can suck. Simple. You may not dive with them, but tens of thousands of people do, for all kinds of reasons. DANs pony bottle solution may not be applicable to you, but you are not a typical diver.

 

[TSandM]

I never said anybody had to take Fundies. GUE is where I got a lot of my training in awareness and team cohesion, but you don't have to get it there. The beginnings of my education were with NWGratefulDiver, and I know he teaches an AOW class that has a lot of the skills for planning a dive and being a good buddy in it. And ANYBODY who takes a cavern or cave class is going to get awareness and communication drilled into them.

The problem is that, like "plan your dive and dive your plan", "dive as a buddy" is taught as a principle, but divers aren't given the tools to accomplish it. For example, it's EXTREMELY difficult to maintain team cohesion in single file without strong lights and a dim surrounding to make them visible. On a Cozumel reef dive, single file is stressful. Sometimes, winding in and out of the canyons, you're pretty much forced to do it, but then you have to look back or between your legs quite frequently to keep track of people, and it's aggravating. On a wall in Puget Sound, single file can work, if everybody has good lights and good light discipline.

The skills can be learned by ANY diver. They aren't taught. That's the problem.