DAN : Dive logs

[M_B]

I just received the latest issue of DAN "Diver Alert" magazine.
Article by Eric Douglas caught my attention - " Plan your Dive - and Do It Yourself". It states that DAN has the "Project Dive Exploration " project since 1995. The goal is " to record more than one million dive profiles to produce statistically accurate analyses of dive profiles, diver characteristics, and diver behavior. " @ ( http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/research/pde/index.asp )

One of the things they do, they want to collect 1 mill. dive profiles. So far they have around 63 000.
So my proposition - why not to create a "sticky forum" so folks will learn about this and participate ?

 

[Genesis]

DAN would get a lot more profiles IF they created software that would download from a dive computer directly, or even would take the data downloaded from one already into the various manufacturers programs (and read THEIR files)

IMHO DAN has sorely missed the boat here, both literally and figuratively. They have "partnered" with various liveaboard vessels, which gets them density but no diversity. As such I will view with great suspicion any "results" they produce, absent some real effort to add diversity (e.g. cold water divers, etc) - and the best way to do this is to develop the software necessary to do the "data linking" and make it freely available so they can get the data they desire.

The SETI @ HOME folks figured this out, and have literally thousands of volunteers giving them CPU cycles. The basic idea is the same....

It would take a relatively small amount of money for them to develop this software.....

 

[M_B]

DAN would get a lot more profiles IF they created software that would download from a dive computer directly, or even would take the data downloaded from one already into the various manufacturers programs (and read THEIR files)

IMHO DAN has sorely missed the boat here, both literally and figuratively. They have "partnered" with various liveaboard vessels, which gets them density but no diversity. As such I will view with great suspicion any "results" they produce, absent some real effort to add diversity (e.g. cold water divers, etc) - and the best way to do this is to develop the software necessary to do the "data linking" and make it freely available so they can get the data they desire.

The SETI @ HOME folks figured this out, and have literally thousands of volunteers giving them CPU cycles. The basic idea is the same....

It would take a relatively small amount of money for them to develop this software.....

According to http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/research/pde/datasystem.asp they developed the system which ( i read very briefly ) will collect the data from ( at least ) Suunto computers in dan's (?) format. Also you can use your comps. software. Also i can see that they work(ed) together with Duke University..
Also this system is compatible with the whole bunch of comps. ( there is a list on the site ). I think, that back in 95, when they started, there were not many computers with DL option, unlike like now. And they haven't got a good return so they are not actively promoting this project nowadays.

The example with SETI is good and i understood the point. But, from my point of view, is not quit valid - SETI created the protocol ( system ) and ported interface ( client soft ) to different platforms. Here there is an opposite situation - you need to pull data ( which is most likely in manuf. unique format ) from completely different devices. So ( again i read very briefly and might be incorrect ) unless manuf. came up with one standard to store information ( doubt) that will lead to creating many different clients/algorithms, which is different from SETI type of tasks.

So unless i'm missing smth or people are just not aware/lazy.

P.S> Look, there are just a few manuf. supporting this project. I guess this is typical "my preciosssss patented cra$" situation, when they just don't want to share the information about internals of their comps.

 

[ShoalDiverSA]

This project seems to be way past its sell-by date, IMHO. If DAN is really interested in getting the profile data, it is time for them to brush off the cobwebs. They still talk about project plans as long ago as 2000.

What's up with this project? Does anyone have an idea?

Cheers,

Andrew

 

[Genesis]

Naw, I don't think its that simple as people being "proprietary" about the data.

I think that its equally about DAN being a prig about how they structured this. In short, they wanted WAY too much "shop" participation and involvement to make it work.

How many people (short of those on liveaboardS) will deal with this? I get back from a trip, I go home, rinse my gear, and download my computer (if I used one - I typically do, but not always!)

Now I have to take my wrist unit BACK to the shop to handle this? What if its on a console? Naw. I think I'll pass.

DAN screwed the pooch here by demanding all kinds of "enrollment" and tracking stuff that people just won't deal with, by and large.

If DAN had made this widely available and easy for the average diver to submit profiles, they'd likely get a lot of buy-in from the diving public. I know I'd be happy to submit my entire logbook to them. But what I won't do is fill out a 27-page-form for each submission, and play all kinds of other games.

If DAN wants the data they're going to have to rethink their goals and how they are going to collect it. They are looking at this as a medical research project, which I guess it is to some degree, but most of the time you have to pay people to participate in those things because they're a PITA to some extent and intrusive.

 

[dc4bs]

Exactly.

I have a Cochran computer that will output it's logs to the DAN required format.

When I tried to send in the first batch after I got the computer and had used it for a while I hit a red tape wall and have never bothered with it since...

 

[Saturation]

The last time I saw the website on uploading profiles and filling up the required forms, its was not easy to use, so much so I stopped using it too. I agree, if they want our profiles, it needs to be easier than uploading it to our own computers.

 

[M_B]

This is what i got from Jeannete this morning :
( posting with Jeannete 's permission )

----------------------- start quote -----------------------------

Subject RE: "Project Dive Exploration " request for info

Andrew,

Project Dive Exploration is still very active, with data collection increasing every year, and various sub-projects have stemmed from this effort as well. To date, PDE has collected over 70,000 dives from volunteer divers worldwide. If you would like additional information about the project and how to participate, visit our website at http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/research/pde/index.asp You can also read about the progress of the study from our newsletter which you can view from the website at http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/news/article.asp?newsid=352 Let me know if you would like to receive a subscription to the e-mail version of the newsletter.

If you have additional questions, do not hesitate to contact me directly.

Thank you,

Jeanette Moore
DAN Research
6 West Colony Place
Durham, NC 27705
E-mail: JMoore@dan.duke.edu
---------------------------- end quote ------------------------

Also i gave her a call:

This project branched out several other projects, such as " Flying after diving" ( you can talk to SeaJay about it ), Diving and elder people etc.

Second, the idea is to do a research, not to just collect diving profiles - so that's why they need us to fill in forms. Plus i see only regular 2 page form with data to file - age, health problems etc. I don't think it will take longer than 5 minutes to fill.

Cooperation with comp. manuf: Jeanette said that they are working on this and there are several companies who are fully support PDE format.

I'll be checking with Oceanic - i have dataplus computer and they are not on the list of participants.

I was told that if the diver wants to participate and have problems with software he/she is always welcome to give them a call so they can guide you and try to solve your problems with software.
They also train people who collect data in field - so u don't need to deal with installing their soft and digging through manual trying to figure out why it is not working - just hand it over to the guy after dive and get it back in 3 minutes. Problem - not many DS have people willing to participate.


B.

 

[M_B]

And the following i've got about 2 hours ago as follow up on my second email to Jeannete, but from Petar :
// Petar actually asked me to post the following here.

------------ start of the quote ----------------

Petar J. Denoble, M.D., D.Sc.
Senior Research Director
Medical Research Department
Divers Alert Network
The Peter B. Bennett Center
6 West Colony Place
Durham, NC 27705
or
Box 3927, Duke University Medical Center
Durham, NC 27710
Tel: (919) 684-2948, x. 261
Fax: (919) 493-3040
Cel: (919) 368-7893
email: pdenoble@dan.duke.edu

DAN is still conducting the Project Dive Exploration. In 2003 we have collected over 18,000 dives bringing our total to nearly 75,000 dive profiles. When combined with data collected through its sister project, DSL (Diving Safety Laboratory) conducted by DAN Europe, the number of dives collected so far come close to 100,000 dives. Of those, nearly fifty resulted with DCS (Decompression Sickness) symptoms that required a recompression treatment.

We have always refused to infringe upon manufacturers right to protect their intellectual property. In return, we have received a continuous and significant support from dive computer manufacturers. Thanks to this approach, most divers using downloadable dive computers today can send their data for PDE without any additional training or software.

In cooperation with dive computer manufacturers, DAN has developed a standard format for data exchange, the Dive Log 7 (DL7). Cochran, DiveRite, Suunto and Uwatec adopted this standard among dive computer manufacturers and by ReefNet (Sensus) among dive recorders. Few others are working on the implementation of DL7 and anyone interested is welcome to do it.

There are 3 levels of data compatibility with the PDE. At level 3, the manufacturer's dive log application is used to download the dive computer to a PC, enter additional data needed by PDE, export data and send it through the e-mail to the PDE central data collection address (dasdata@dan.duke.edu).

The PDE database contains a variety of data representing various dive styles, geographic regions, age, sex, health and diving experience of recreational divers. We were able to point out significant differences in incidence of DCS among various groups of divers, conduct some case control studies, and more studies are coming. Since 2000, the annual review of PDE data is included in DAN's Annual review of recreational scuba diving injuries in fatalities, Report on Decompression Illness, Diving Fatalities and Project Dive Exploration. The last edition (2003) brings a review of data collected in 2001. The 2004 edition will be released by March 2004.

Thanks to enthusiasm of divers who participated in PDE over the years, and to criticism of both participants and those who didn't want to participate, we have significantly improved the tools and the process of data collection. If you own one of the dive computers that can send data directly to DAN, please do so. To learn more about opportunities to participate in PDE for those that don't have their own computer, please check the DAN website under Medical Research.

------------- end of the quote ----------------

B.

 

[Genesis]

I checked into it, and there is no apparent way for me, as an individual, to participate without getting a LDS near me involved.