D3/Zenith vs D1/Classic for new purchase?

[elgoog]

Hi -

I'm looking to buy a couple of sets of regulators this Christmas for my wife and I and have narrowed down to the HOGs or DiveRite XT packages. Both have great reviews and are very comparable in price, configuration options I like (short bungeed backup, short hose for SPG, undecided on 7' primary or 40" with right angle adapter) and suited to coldwater diving (90% of our dives are going to be in Monterey/Sonoma). The regs will be for single tank rec diving for the forseeable future. Having said that, I had some questions about the current HOGs -
1. For new purchases, is there any reason to go for the D1/Classic instead of the D3/Zenith? From what I can tell, the newer models are functionally very similar to the originals with improvements made in a few areas.
2. I don't see any singles regulator package deals for the D3/Zenith on any of the Internet retailers. Is that because it's a newer product? There were a couple of places with sets that had one D3 and one Zenith but nothing with the full setup.
3. If I do get an available package, it looks like I'll get the 1st stage, 2 2nd stages, hoses, SPG, etc. Is everything usually already tuned and ready to go once assembled or is some work needed after I get everything?
4. One of the websites had a D3 with a single Zenith listed as a warm water package but had a sealed DIN/yoke option. In that case, is the sealed D3 equivalent to coldwater D1?

Another issue (not specific to HOG) that I'm grappling with is whether to get DIN or yoke. We currently rent tanks (no plans to buy) and so far have always used yoke valves. Some of the dive shops and boats have tanks with the convertible valves but for the type of diving we plan on doing, I can't think of a good reason to get the DIN option. I've never done with a DIN-to-yoke adapter or seen someone dive with one and am not sure how bothersome it may or may not be. Thoughts on this?

Thanks in advance,
elgoog

 

[Gren]

I can't answer most of you questions but as far as DIN vs yoke, if the places you dive have DIN, I'd go with DIN. They are more reliable and your 1st stage has the o-ring which you care for rather than getting rental tanks with bad o-rings.

 

[tbone1004]

so, here's a long reply

The second stages mechanically are the same. The Zenith looks cooler and has a soft silicone purge button, you can get the silicon cover for the Classics. End of story there.

The D1 and the D3 are also basically the same, slightly different design, and the D3 looks cooler, but that's basically it.

If you have options for convertible valves, use them, DIN is better, not faster, but definitely better. I didn't realize the D3's had the option to be sold in Yoke, but if you buy from DiveRightinScuba or Cave Adventurers, maybe order it in yoke, and pay the extra to have the DIN kit parts thrown in. It's literally 2 parts for the yoke, and 3 parts for the DIN, might cost you $40/$50, but it's better than having the adapter stick the regulator 2 inches farther towards your head. I'm sure there's a tech diver around you that can show you how to safely swap them over.

Last bit. You are not diving in "cold water", this is a very misunderstood piece of information that unfortunately isn't discussed in enough classes.
Cold water is sub 35F where air temperatures are below freezing. The first stages should then be sealed because in the advent of a freeflow the outside of the reg will freeze, but the moving parts inside will not freeze causing the freeflow to either continue uncontrollably, or freeze the first stage off and keep it from delivering air.



Those are sherwood Bruts, but you get the picture. Someone actually posted a picture of Hog D1's doing it the other day, but can't remember where it is. Very very very few divers actually dive in conditions that warrant environmental sealing due to the cold, most of it is due to particular matter in river diving or sitting in the silt on stage bottles in caves.

Depending on the cost differential and what you value the "cool factor" at, I'd just get the D1's, mechanically and functionally they're the same, just look slightly cooler

 

[Scubatude]

Not really true.

The D3 has some design improvements over the D1. The turret is longer on the D3 which allows the turret to spin 360 degrees even with hoses attached. Nice feature. The biggest new feature in my mind is the replaceable hard HP seat. This is a big upgrade, and will allow for better first stage performance, easier serviceability, and a longer regulator life.

The Zenith has had some upgrades too. Most notably is a design change over the Classic that helps reduce free flow in heavy current. The silicone cover makes clearing much easier then the Classic 2nd stages.

Online combos? Well, since you asked...

HOG D1 Cold Single Tank Combo Package

 

[divad]

The Zenith looks cooler

If you like Dodge Chrysler.
It's a little too "Ram Tough" for my taste.

​

 

[tbone1004]

the only design change on the 2nd stage was the cover, the internals are identical if you service the Classic with the new parts kits. They changed some seat design.

You also have it a bit backwards on the HP seat. ALL regulators have a replaceable HP seat, you have to as it is a consumable part. The D3 has a replaceable seat crown, which is the metal bit with the knife edge that the HP seat seals to. This is now replaceable, but doesn't actually offer a performance advantage, but means that if/when a tech screws up and chews the seat edge apart, it can be replaced instead of having to change the whole regulator out.

These are design improvements like you said, but not performance improvements. The human body can't detect any changes, and the ability to swivel 360* isn't useful in real world, though the longer turret makes hose routing a bit nicer in doubles and sidemount.

 

[Scubatude]

The HOG seconds have always been designed to use the same parts kits. That does not mean the case remains the same or the flow dynamics have not improved. They have.

The HARD seat, which is the knife edge seat is replaceable on the D3 where it was not on the D1.

 

[elgoog]

All -

Thanks for all the information. Based on the replies, here's some additional thoughts I had.

D1 vs D3 -
1. The 360 degree swivel on the D3 isn't a deciding factor since I'll be using only singles for now.
2. The part on the D3 that is replaceable (and not on the D1) seems to be potentially impacted only during servicing. If the service is done by a HOG authorized tech, would any damage be covered by the warranty? I guess this is more relevant in case of the D1 where the entire regulator would then have to be replaced.

Cold water/sealed 1st stage vs not - I was going by the "anything less than 50F is cold water" benchmark. I think I saw this in the HOG/EDGE regulator manuals as well but could be wrong about that. Since the cost to seal the 1st stage is not that high, I might end up getting that done anyway. Are there any downsides to having that done for dives in warmer water?

Zenith vs Classic -
1. I like looks of the Classic better, not a fan of the chrome. The blacked out Zenith is pretty cool, though.
2. If adding the soft cover on the Classic makes the purge functionally the same as the Zenith, there's no difference for me.
3. About the design improvements that prevent free flow in current or using scooters - how severe or noticeable is this? I don't plan on doing any DPV dives in the near future. Does adding the soft cover above have any impact on this issue?

Overall package -
Cost between the 2 packages is more of a factor than I originally thought, ~$200 more for the D3+Zenith package, so this may actually become THE deciding factor for my purchase (since I basically have to budget for 2 of everything for dive gear to keep my wife happy). It looks like for D3+Zenith, the cost of the entire package is essentially the same as buying each component individually and there's no built-in package discount as seen with the D1+Classic packages (this is true at least on DRIS)

Yoke vs DIN - A little stuck on this one but leaning towards DIN. I think I'm going to try diving with a DIN reg+adapter to see for myself how much the extra thickness is bothersome for when I don't have the convertible valve option.

Thanks again for the information and putting up with my long winded posts.
Best,
elgoog

 

[tbone1004]

Hog has a lifetime warranty on the metal bits, so yes, they will replace it if it wears out, not sure about damaged during service, but the tech should be expected to replace it.

Yes, you should get it sealed anyway, just wanted to explain that the definition of cold water is a bit different from what most think of. You aren't hurting anything by getting it sealed. California is a different animal since the temperature differential between water and air is generally backwards from the rest of the country where the water temps are typically a bit warmer than the air temps when the water gets cold.

If you like the looks of the classic, just get the D1/classic set, you won't be missing out on anything, it's not anything that you will notice in most diving. The DPV thing is real, but it's still only marginal.

If you will have access to convertibles more than 50% of the time, then stay with DIN, it's not too terribly bad with the adapter. If it's about 50/50 depending on how it breaks down, then it may be worth asking Mike to cost out the parts for the yoke since the parts are still available it shouldn't be too much, maybe $40 in parts, takes less than 5 minutes to swap around, but you should definitely use DIN if it is available to you.

 

[Scubatude]

All -

Thanks for all the information. Based on the replies, here's some additional thoughts I had.

D1 vs D3 -
1. The 360 degree swivel on the D3 isn't a deciding factor since I'll be using only singles for now.
2. The part on the D3 that is replaceable (and not on the D1) seems to be potentially impacted only during servicing. If the service is done by a HOG authorized tech, would any damage be covered by the warranty? I guess this is more relevant in case of the D1 where the entire regulator would then have to be replaced.

Cold water/sealed 1st stage vs not - I was going by the "anything less than 50F is cold water" benchmark. I think I saw this in the HOG/EDGE regulator manuals as well but could be wrong about that. Since the cost to seal the 1st stage is not that high, I might end up getting that done anyway. Are there any downsides to having that done for dives in warmer water?

Zenith vs Classic -
1. I like looks of the Classic better, not a fan of the chrome. The blacked out Zenith is pretty cool, though.
2. If adding the soft cover on the Classic makes the purge functionally the same as the Zenith, there's no difference for me.
3. About the design improvements that prevent free flow in current or using scooters - how severe or noticeable is this? I don't plan on doing any DPV dives in the near future. Does adding the soft cover above have any impact on this issue?

Overall package -
Cost between the 2 packages is more of a factor than I originally thought, ~$200 more for the D3+Zenith package, so this may actually become THE deciding factor for my purchase (since I basically have to budget for 2 of everything for dive gear to keep my wife happy). It looks like for D3+Zenith, the cost of the entire package is essentially the same as buying each component individually and there's no built-in package discount as seen with the D1+Classic packages (this is true at least on DRIS)

Yoke vs DIN - A little stuck on this one but leaning towards DIN. I think I'm going to try diving with a DIN reg+adapter to see for myself how much the extra thickness is bothersome for when I don't have the convertible valve option.

Thanks again for the information and putting up with my long winded posts.
Best,
elgoog

Great post. It looks like you have done your homework. Well done.

I am a HOG Premium Dealer, and HOG Repair Tech Instructor here in California. Let me know if I can answer any more questions or be of any help to you.

Robert