Creation vs. Evolution

[do it easy]

I wasn't there nor have I seen Jesus. All I can do is weigh the evidence presented to me with an open mind. Having done that I am satisfied that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead... and for me that opened the door for faith... not the other way around.

I wasn't going to join in on this thread, but I saw that you posted and I was as curious as much as I was surprised. That's an interesting perspective. I've always thought of faith as something that you have or don't have, but perhaps, somewhere along the way you either have to get it or lose it.

 

[Thalassamania]

Actually... if it were proven that Jesus did not rise from the dead then Christianity would be a fraud..

Wait a minute, many hundreds of posts ago we had established that there were no contemporaneous references to Jesus. So how can someone who did not exist rise from the non-existent dead?

And yet there is plenty of evidence that Jesus did actually rise from the dead... at least it is enough evidence for me to believe that it is true... the recorded testimony of eyewitnesses being being the primary and convincing evidence for me.

If there is not evidence of Jesus living in life, how can there be evidence of his living after death?

 

[Robert Phillips]

Actually... if it were proven that Jesus did not rise from the dead then Christianity would be a fraud.

And yet there is plenty of evidence that Jesus did actually rise from the dead... at least it is enough evidence for me to believe that it is true... the recorded testimony of eyewitnesses being being the primary and convincing evidence for me.

The willingness of the principles to die rather than recant their testimony of having seen the resurrected Jesus gives extraordinary weight to their words.

Of particular importance is the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, arch enemy of Christianity. His claim to have actually seen the resurrected Jesus is made all the more believable in that his conversion cost him personally by way of losing all position and prestige in the Jewish religion ...and ultimately costing him his very life.

I wasn't there nor have I seen Jesus. All I can do is weigh the evidence presented to me with an open mind. Having done that I am satisfied that Jesus did indeed rise from the dead... and for me that opened the door for faith... not the other way around.

I absolutely hate to argue this with you Ron, due to my respect for you, but there is no 'recorded history of eyewitnesses.' All the gospels were written decades after the "actual" event took place. Saul's 'conversion' changed the teachings of the original Church of Jerusalem into a Mithraic religion. Mithraism being the most popular religion in Rome at the time. Though Saul of Tarsus was of Jewish ancestry, he was raised as a Roman citizen and not a Jew. And 'Christianity' did not exist until Saul's "conversion." He was charged with eliminating the enemies of Rome, not Judaism.

 

[Uncle Pug]

Wait a minute, many hundreds of posts ago we had established that there were no contemporaneous references to Jesus. So how can someone who did not exist rise from the non-existent dead?

If there is not evidence of Jesus living in life, how can there be evidence of his living after death?

Perhaps you think the discussion should be over since you have established something to your own satisfaction.

There most certainly are contemporaneous references to Jesus. Perhaps they are not references that you accept... but they are ones that I accept.

And the logic you claim others lack is certainly lacking in your post. Even if it were proven that there were no contemporaneous references to Jesus that would certainly not prove non-existence.

At any rate... whether you believe or not is not an issue to me. I am merely stating that I believe based on what I consider to be solid evidence. Why is my believing an issue to you?

 

[Uncle Pug]

I absolutely hate to argue this with you Ron, due to my respect for you, but there is no 'recorded history of eyewitnesses.' All the gospels were written decades after the "actual" event took place. Saul's 'conversion' changed the teachings of the original Church of Jerusalem into a Mithraic religion. Mithraism being the most popular religion in Rome at the time. Though Saul of Tarsus was of Jewish ancestry, he was raised as a Roman citizen and not a Jew. And 'Christianity' did not exist until Saul's "conversion." He was charged with eliminating the enemies of Rome, not Judaism.

Well, Robert... I won't argue it with you. It is rude to argue about religion.

 

[H2Andy]

And yet there is plenty of evidence that Jesus did actually rise from the dead... at least it is enough evidence for me to believe that it is true... the recorded testimony of eyewitnesses being being the primary and convincing evidence for me.

there is quite sufficient evidence for me to conclude that no eyewitnesses to Jesus's life wrote the Gospels.

they were written decades after the facts they purport to describe, and are quite clearly based on second-hand (and sometimes third-hand) accounts. in fact, it is quite clear that Mak was written first, and that both Luke and Matthew used Mark's gospel to write their own, after the fact.

Paul is the closest writer to Jesus's own time (writing about 48 A.D., and let's assume a 30 A.D. death of Jesus).

but Paul was not an eye witness to Jesus' life.

as for Jesus' resurrection, read what Paul writes closely, and with a discerning eye. you might be surprised what he actually says, as opposed as to what Christians say he says.

on second thought, never mind. as you say, you are free to believe whatever you want.

One thing that is puzzling to me is the time spent on this thread by those who claim NOT to believe in God. Why bother?

well, Pug... i've seen you argue many times that you don't believe computers are needed in diving

if you don't believe they are needed, why bother arguing?

 

[Robert Phillips]

Well, Robert... I won't argue it with you. It is rude to argue about religion.

How right you are sir. I apologize most sincerely. What you believe is your business. I respect that and will defend it with my life.

 

[H2Andy]

How right you are sir. I apologize most sincerely. What you believe is your business. I respect that and will defend it with my life.

a healthy disrespect for authority, no matter what form it purports to take, is a good thing

this whole thread is an argument about religion. if Pug doesn't want to participate, he doesn't have to. 201 pages later he discovers that it's rude to do so?

Pug's much too clever for that

 

[Robert Phillips]

a healthy disrespect for authority, no matter what form it purports to take, is a good thing

this whole thread is an argument about religion. if Pug doesn't want to participate, he doesn't have to. 201 pages later he discovers that it's rude to do so?

Pug's much too clever for that

Oh, I was getting ready to reply that I believe a debate about religion is perfectly acceptable and will participate in one until my dying breath.
I believe he was responding to my post in regards to arguing it with him. I chose those words unwisely as I had already posted several references to the lack of eyewitness accounts several of those 100's of posts back. And my respect for Pug is not from his authority, I have very little respect for that, but from his wisdom and skills.

I have no doubt for my reasons for discounting the myth of christianity. But I respect others reasons for believing, even if I know they are deluded.
Just keep them out of my music, politics and life and I'm okay, if they can't do that... Then, it's on!

 

[H2Andy]

well, my position is kind of hard to describe:

i dont' believe God exists, nor do I believe Jesus came back from the dead (though it is likely that a Jesus figure(s) did live around that time).

from the "Jesus" teachings, I think there is much of value to be learned, and that the Western World has ultimately benefited from those teachings, leading to our concept of human rights and individual rights (which i admit are secular concepts, but certainly based on Christianity's moral position that God cares about how we treat each other)

as metaphors, i find God and Jesus extremely valuable in my life