Creation vs. Evolution

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Gosh, that sounds almost as stunning as a giant high definition TV.
Sandjeep, it sounds like you already "know beyond any doubt". Or do you have doubts? Maybe just some teensy-weensy ones?
Better check that tomb again, make sure it's still empty.
 
agilis,
LOL, if I ever get the den finished, I'm going to get a sony 60"! A house is a terrible thing to own!

No doubts my friend.
 
Kim,

Correction on my post concerning the movie "The Body". It was not a Jeep, CJ7 or otherwise. It looked like some type of older British military lorry now thatI've re-watched it.
 
sandjeep:
to know beyond any doubt!

well, then, your search is over

if you have no doubts, nothing can ever change your mind

(to which you'd reply: i don't have to change my mind, because i know i am right)
 
I've skimmed most of the posts on this topic, and it seems to me that there really needn't be an argument at all. Anyone even reasonably educated believes that evolution is a process that is currently occuring, and has occured in the past.
Having said that, evolution does not explain how everything came to be. Theology, and philosophy, can explain that, although never to the satisfaction of the scientists.

Scientists, it seems to me, look at a house and decide it was built by a hammer and saw, etc. They(scientists) are unqualified to offer insight beyond that. Theolgians say the house was built by a(n) contractor, architect, etc. They(theologians) are unqualified to go beyond that.

The apparent conflict is merely one of point of view. I see no contradiction in believing in evolution, without seeing a conflict with my ontology.

BTW, I am Roman Catholic, if it matters. :)
 
sandjeep:
Secular evidence for the existence of Jesus

Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian and although not a eye witness provides a narrative describing who Jesus is, who put Him to death, and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

Thallus was another historian who mentions Jesus through a reference from Julius Africanus. In the reference Thallus dismisses the darkness as a solar eclipse.

Lucian of Samosata describes Christians and their lawgiver (Jesus) as misguided creatures who deny the gods of Greece.

Pliny the Younger forced (tried to) Christians to curse Christ. That is something we will not do, even if it means bodily death.

Mara Bar-Serapion, while in prison, writes a letter to his son, encouraging him to seek wisdom mentions Christ. (Christus)

The Babylionian Talmud describes the death of Christ (Yeshu)

The Jewish historian Josephus described Jesus as doer of wonderful works.
Get your facts straight, learn some history, don't make claims that can not be supported:

Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian and although not a eye witness provides a narrative describing who Jesus is, who put Him to death, and to the existence of Christians in Rome. 115 C.E.

Thallus was another historian who mentions Jesus through a reference from Julius Africanus. In the reference Thallus dismisses the darkness as a solar eclipse.
middle of the 1st century to the late 2nd century (Julius Africanus was third Century C.E.)

Lucian of Samosata describes Christians and their lawgiver (Jesus) as misguided creatures who deny the gods of Greece. Sometime after 120 C.E.

Pliny the Younger forced (tried to) Christians to curse Christ. That is something we will not do, even if it means bodily death.
63- 113 C.E.

Mara Bar-Serapion, while in prison, writes a letter to his son, encouraging him to seek wisdom mentions Christ. (Christus)
73-200 C.E.

The Babylionian Talmud describes the death of Christ (Yeshu) From the third century B.C.E. Again not contemporary, you’d have to argue prophetic.

The Jewish historian Josephus described Jesus as doer of wonderful works. Wrote in 70 C.E., born about the time of Jesus alleged death.
 
kombiguy, the problem I see with your house analogy is that theologians are clearly unqualified to make any accurate observations about architects, contractors, blueprints, original designs or intent. Everything they say is unsupported speculation, packaged as revelation, divine inspiration, or some other form of magic. Scientists deal with observed phenomena. Theologians either make stuff up, or extend a position based on things that other people invented out of their imagination.
The brilliant Thomas Aquinas wrote volumes in support of Roman Catholic theology. The starting point for Aquinas was the observation that everything in existence has some cause; is the product of some action that brought it into being. Logic, he tells us, argues against an endless infinity of such causal links. He then postulates a First Cause, a Prime Mover, the Uncaused Cause. This, he states, is a fundamental proof of God's existence. He then reasons forward from that point, eventually arriving at the complex theology of orthodox medieval Christianity. Naturally, as he progresses beyond the initial proposition, his argument becomes increasingly thin, despite its immense volume.
 
kombiguy:
Theolgians say the house was built by a(n) contractor, architect, etc. They(theologians) are unqualified to go beyond that.

they're even unqualified to say the house was built by a contractor or architect.

the best they can do is say "maybe" it was built by a contractor or architect

but generally i agree with you...

we know what happened from .0000000001 second after the Big Bang onwards

as to WHY the Big Bang happened, or what was there BEFORE the Big Bang happened, we can only speculate

and of that which you don't know, say nothing...

but bringing forth a Supreme Deity to explain what I don't know seems wholy unsatistactory to me. i'd rather say, "i don't know."

also, bringing forth the Supreme Deity as an explanation creates more questions than it answers.

finally, the Supreme Deity is unecessary:

how did the universe come to be created?


God created it

Who created God?

He's always existed.


as opposed to:

how did the unvierse come to be created?

it's always existed


you just cut out two levels there
 
H2Andy:
you just cut out two levels there
Occam's Scalpel, bravo!
 
agilis:
kombiguy, the problem I see with your house analogy is that theologians are clearly unqualified to make any accurate observations about architects, contractors, blueprints, original designs or intent. Everything they say is unsupported speculation, packaged as revelation, divine inspiration, or some other form of magic. Scientists deal with observed phenomena. Theologians either make stuff up, or extend a position based on things that other people invented out of their imagination.
The brilliant Thomas Aquinas wrote volumes in support of Roman Catholic theology. The starting point for Aquinas was the observation that everything in existence has some cause; is the product of some action that brought it into being. Logic, he tells us, argues against an endless infinity of such causal links. He then postulates a First Cause, a Prime Mover, the Uncaused Cause. This, he states, is a fundamental proof of God's existence. He then reasons forward from that point, eventually arriving at the complex theology of orthodox medieval Christianity. Naturally, as he progresses beyond the initial proposition, his argument becomes increasingly thin, despite its immense volume.

I see your point, perhaps I could eventually come up with a better one. My underlying point was that there exists, neyond scientific exploration, a great deal. While I bow to no one in my admiration for science and its practitioners, it is hard to assert that only science can provide us with insight into the world. Perhaps my analogy was flawed, maybe I'll work on a better one. :)
Aquinas, however, wasn't the originator of the prime mover. Aristotle had come up with it a thousand years before. And while influential, Aquinas can hardly be said to be the originator of midieval Catholic theology.
However, you are correct that beyond a certain point, things are either believed or not, and become matters of faith, beyond empiricism. That doesn't, I believe, render faith and science incompatible.
Thanks for a thoughtful reply!
 
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