Creation vs. Evolution

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H2Andy:
well, my position is kind of hard to describe:

i dont' believe God exists, nor do I believe Jesus came back from the dead (though it is likely that a Jesus figure(s) did live around that time).

from the "Jesus" teachings, I think there is much of value to be learned, and that the Western World has ultimately benefited from those teachings, leading to our concept of human rights and individual rights (which i admit are secular concepts, but certainly based on Christianity's moral position that God cares about how we treat each other)

as metaphors, i find God and Jesus extremely valuable in my life

Now, was that hard?:D
I see the "Jesus teachings" to be a mixture of many different religions as well as the Jesus myth to be a mixture of many different religions that existed before Saul invented "Christianity."
So, if there was an actual, living Jesus, he bears absolutely no resemblance to what modern "christians" believe he is. In order to understand what Jeheshua Ben Joseph taught or believed, you would need to understand how the Jew in ancient Palestine thought. Since most people that say they study the bible neither speak nor read ancient Aramaic, Hebrew or Greek, they really have never studied the Bible. You can't argue or debate that.

Every man and woman is a star. Liber Al Vel Legis
There is no god but man. Ibid
 
Uncle Pug:
One thing that is puzzling to me is the time spent on this thread by those who claim NOT to believe in God. Why bother?
Presumably because the thread title is about two things not just one. Just because someone might not believe in God - and actually I'm not exactly one of those although I suspect we hold radically different views of what that God is - doesn't mean they don't believe in truth.
At the end of the day God may or may not exist....but the truth of what really happened always will, even if we can't know what it is.
 
Lots of posts after I called it a night, I will respond not specifically but in a general rambling way.

Let me say this before I start. Many Christians, although not fluent, study Greek and Hebrew especially words or phrases that are important to us like Tetelestai. Even if English speaking Christians did not study words in Greek or Hebrew, we can still rely on the KJV as accurate. See my posting on the Qumran Great Isaiah Scroll. Regardless, of what one personally believes, it was buried for over 1000 years and provides proof that the KJV of Isaiah is 99.5% the same.

As for who wrote the gospels, strictly speaking, they are anonymous. BUT, the writings of the early church testify that Matthew, (aka Levi) is the author of the book that bears his name. Matthew was an eye witness to the events he describes. John Mark was a companion to Peter (aka Simon Bar-Jona) and technically a 2nd hand account in our culture, but that is tedious at best. Luke wrote his, Acts, and hung out with Paul. The only question with John is from a source dated later concerning which John is being talked about. Besides Papias (source), everything else points to John and he was an eyewitness. Paul (aka Saul) was a Pharisee who was intent on stamping out Christianity, in fact, he held the coats of the men who stoned Stephen to death. Paul did not invent Christianity, nor did he hijack it. He had what some of us has described as a 'on the road to Damascus' event and came to know Jesus in the only way someone like him could. Some Christians have been blessed by similar events.

Secular evidence for the existence of Jesus

Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian and although not a eye witness provides a narrative describing who Jesus is, who put Him to death, and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

Thallus was another historian who mentions Jesus through a reference from Julius Africanus. In the reference Thallus dismisses the darkness as a solar eclipse.

Lucian of Samosata describes Christians and their lawgiver (Jesus) as misguided creatures who deny the gods of Greece.

Pliny the Younger forced (tried to) Christians to curse Christ. That is something we will not do, even if it means bodily death.

Mara Bar-Serapion, while in prison, writes a letter to his son, encouraging him to seek wisdom mentions Christ. (Christus)

The Babylionian Talmud describes the death of Christ (Yeshu)

The Jewish historian Josephus described Jesus as doer of wonderful works.

For more legal type of evidence that Christ does exist, there is Simon Greenleaf and Lionel Luckhoo who wrote extensively concerning the collobative weight in secular writings. I have not read these entirely, only parts. Greenleaf was one of the founders of Harvard and luckhoo, I think, is in the Guinness book of records for being the best defense attorney on the planet.

There is much more but my fingers are tired, so I will re-post what C.S Lewis put so well,

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

I know that, given the world we live in, these are hard things to accept. I only ask that you approach it seeking the truth. Why was the tomb empty?
 
sandjeep:
Secular evidence for the existence of Jesus

Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian and although not a eye witness provides a narrative describing who Jesus is, who put Him to death, and to the existence of Christians in Rome.

Thallus was another historian who mentions Jesus through a reference from Julius Africanus. In the reference Thallus dismisses the darkness as a solar eclipse.

Lucian of Samosata describes Christians and their lawgiver (Jesus) as misguided creatures who deny the gods of Greece.

Pliny the Younger forced (tried to) Christians to curse Christ. That is something we will not do, even if it means bodily death.

Mara Bar-Serapion, while in prison, writes a letter to his son, encouraging him to seek wisdom mentions Christ. (Christus)

The Babylionian Talmud describes the death of Christ (Yeshu)

The Jewish historian Josephus described Jesus as doer of wonderful works.

For more legal type of evidence that Christ does exist, there is Simon Greenleaf and Lionel Luckhoo who wrote extensively concerning the collobative weight in secular writings. I have not read these entirely, only parts. Greenleaf was one of the founders of Harvard and luckhoo, I think, is in the Guinness book of records for being the best defense attorney on the planet.

As was posted many, many pages ago... Most of what you call evidence of Jesus, is evidence of 'followers of Jesus.'


C.S. Lewis was a hack at worst and a disingenuous writer at best.

So I will leave you with what put Stephen Roberts so well: I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.


There is much more but my fingers are tired, so I will re-post what C.S Lewis put so well,

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: ‘I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.’ That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”

I know that, given the world we live in, these are hard things to accept. I only ask that you approach it seeking the truth. Why was the tomb empty?
 
One of the great things about being a human is you can make any one or any thing you would like to be your god; and then enjoy or suffer the consequences.
 
do it easy:
That's an interesting perspective. I've always thought of faith as something that you have or don't have, but perhaps, somewhere along the way you either have to get it or lose it.
There is a difference between belief and faith.
Many believe something but have no faith in what they believe.
And it is unlikely (and unsound) to have faith in something you do not believe.

What a person believes sets the stage for what they will allow as further evidence and also how they will hear that evidence. That is why it is futile to 'argue' religion with those who have a closed mind (on either side.)

Still a discussion where each shares what they believe (and why they believe it) isn't necessarily out of order and need not be considered rude.

Back to faith. Faith is a spiritual thing. I speak from experience on this. I once was an antagonistic atheist. At a point in time I allowed the possibility that I could be wrong and began to re-examine everything. That lead me to a belief in God and also a belief in the resurrection of Jesus. Others have passed on the same road going the other direction.

But, as I said before, belief opened the door to faith. Faith was something else entirely. Faith was something that had been outside my personal experience. But Faith once born produced something else... and that was Hope. Not the kind of wishful hoping as in 'I sure hope I win the lottery.'

It was a Hope that passed understanding (logic/reason) and produced a peace deep within and that in spite of outward circumstance. It is a Hope that anchors me to the love of God.

Belief didn't produce that... it merely opened the door to it.
 
Well said Pug (nice to see you back also). Faith is also very, very personal; which is why many persons of faith feel that questions relating to their beliefs, which led to their faith, are personal attacks, and thus conversations along those lines tend to be counterproductive.
 
sandjeep:
I don't have a clue where Heaven is, but I know how to get there.

what is heaven? and if there's nothing bad in heaven how can there be anything good? if heaven is timeless, how can it change? if it never changes don't the occupants get bored with it? if it does change does it get better?

if heaven is just like earth, only with the "bad stuff" all fixed, don't we all have different opinions of what the bad stuff is? what if god is a communist, aren't all the capitalists going to be pissed off? there's certainly no way to vote god out of power up there...

if everyone is just brainwashed to bask in god's glory and that's good for eternity, that's right up there with the worst of any dictatorship in history and is pretty much straight out of Orwell...
 
Uncle Pug:
Perhaps you think the discussion should be over since you have established something to your own satisfaction.

There most certainly are contemporaneous references to Jesus. Perhaps they are not references that you accept... but they are ones that I accept.
This is a binary, yes or no, true of false, it is not a matter of conjecture and option, of acceptance or disbelief.

THERE ARE NO CONTEMPORANEOUS REFERENCES TO JESUS.

If you can find find one you will be regarded as the greatest biblical scholar of the last thousand years. We all await either your retraction or your evidence with bated breath.
 
Lamont,

I can only tell you what I know. Its true that we can talk about string theory, cold fusion, the distance to the nearest star, all of these things, but does it really matter? I've never bashed science as a whole on this thread, in fact I use technological science every day, but there comes a point when we have to push it off to the side and get down to whats really important.

To be in the presence of the creator is to be surrounded by perfection. Human words can not describe this perfection, in fact, on this side of the curtain we can not survive it. See Exodus 33:22

Imagine being in the presence of the being who created ALL with just His will!! To be surrounded by that just for a moment, to know beyond any doubt!

Brainwashed and boring you say? No, far from it.
 
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