Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

Read the thread. Historical proof of the existence of an individual requires two contemporary cross-references, for Jesus there are zero. Try and rationalize that away however you want, it doesn’t matter, once you’re through, the facts still remain.

What is the significance of historical proof? Is that what it takes to get a name in a history book or is failure to establish "historical proof" evidence of nonexistance.

In the case of Jesus, I guess the arguement is a lack of comtemporary secular references. We've been over this but Peter, John, James and Mathew left records and they knew him. Paul and Luke knew them and left plenty of record. Though some of the writings of those people are disputed by secular "historians" The doctrine that they taught certainly survives. Put it all together and it seems silly to try to argue that there was no Jesus. When you try to apply this "two cross reference standard" to argue that none of them existed it seems like grasping at straws. For a bunch of people who never existed, they did a heck of a job of kicking off a church.

oops, I gorgot, the church rewrote everything including the parts of Josephus that the historians don't like...but the church would have to exist before it could rewrite anything, wouldn't it?...which brings us right back to the names that I already mentioned.

 

[Thalassamania]

T. Peter Park's expostulation based on Sagan's "Extraordinary claims require
extraordinary evidence." has a serious problem. Requiring two cross-references is not "extraordinary" it's SOP for historians. One can make every bit as good a case for the historical existence of Herakles as one can for Christ.

 

[mislav]

Ah, no...I think somehow you completely missed what I tried to say. I don't know how you got that from what I wrote. If you look back you'll see that I was responding to a question that asked what the difference was between the attitude of "kill them" and "let them go to hell" Somehow you came up with "kill them all and let God sort them out

I didn't say that this was what you meant, Mike, but this line of thinking represents the foundation for the logic I mentioned...

 

[Soggy]

We've been over this but Peter, John, James and Mathew left records and they knew him. Paul and Luke knew them and left plenty of record.

Yes, we have been over this. Those people did not write the documents attributed to them.

 

[Thalassamania]

As George Santayana said, "Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeate it." Why then are we repeating this thread? It must be that they've not learned. Repent, Groundhog day is upon us!

 

[Robert Phillips]

from: http://www.mail-archive.com/mythfolk@yahoogroups.com/msg00612.html


Other than the Realtime Second Coming, probably not. That's a another matter all together, one of Faith.

I doubt anyone has claimed that Napoleon rose from the dead. If they have, well maybe they need some Thorazine.
Ancient writings from EYEWITNESSES is what we have for Alexander, Napoleon, etc... This is very different from writings of dubious authorship and forgeries written decades and centuries later.
Your source set up for defeat his own apologetics in the first paragraph you quoted and then knock it out in the last one.

If the whole second coming thing keeps you going, great. Good luck with that.

I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours. Stephen Roberts

This last part is not directed at you Kev it is just the last I will add to this discussion:
Telling people that they better hope they are right because they have a 50% chance of being wrong is bad math. You need to factor in all the other religions with an eschatology. I could be wrong, but by my math you all have a 17% chance of being right.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Yes, we have been over this. Those people did not write the documents attributed to them.

You say that like it's proven fact. It's not, And in fact, the authorship of all of those documents isn't disputed at all. Some of Pauls letters and the book of acts for example.

 

[MikeFerrara]

As George Santayana said, "Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeate it." Why then are we repeating this thread? It must be that they've not learned. Repent, Groundhog day is upon us!

I think we're repeating portions for the benefit of new commers.

the interesting thins is that those of us that were here through most of it remember it different. LOL with everyone thinking that their point was proven.

 

[novicediver]

Ok, can we please kill this thread?

 

[Thalassamania]

Ok, can we please kill this thread?

If it bores or offends you, you do not have to participate.