Creation vs. Evolution

[Thalassamania]

Incorrect, Thal. Those logs do not exist. They were cited by writers who had access to them 300 years or so after Alexander existed. They have since disappeared but we take the word of those writer's who did reference them. But, like you, I do not doubt the existence of Alexander. I used him as an example of how we accept the validity of historical evidence that was written about him 300+ years after he lived. I also cited other historical figures whom we do not have documentation that dates to any where near the time of their lives & yet you ignore it. Pick & choose a lot, don't you?

As you pointed out some time ago, no one can be a world class expert at everything. I do not pretend to be a Ph.D. level historian. It was my understanding that the aforementioned logs still exist, but if they don't it changes nothing. There are still more than two contemporaneous data points for Alexander, and that's the test. But even if there were not ... Alexander is not the issue, Jesus is the issue, and might I say, Jesus is an issue that you seem to be avoiding.

I was taught by a Ph.D. level historian, with a list of refereed publications that stretched to many pages, that there is insufficient data out there to actually classify Jesus as a legitimate historic figure (as I recall, he was a Christian and was somewhat bemused by the situation). Over the course of four decades I have raised this issue any number of times. Never has anyone been able to contradict it, so I've come to assume that he was correct. If you have new data to present, that will alter that conclusion, please serve it up. I'm always open to changing my mind based on new or better data. But if you don't have such data, please have the good grace to admit it.

With respect to the logs of Alexander: let's assume that you are correct, the logs no longer exist. I'm willing, therefore, to bend over backwards to "level" the playing field (not really required because of the plethora of other Alexander data points, coins, illustrations, other writings, etc.) and amend my challenge:

Please, provide two contemporaneous references to Jesus, either surviving, or that were cited by ancient authors who could reasonably have been expected to have access to such references.
​

Fair enough?

So, if you have no dog to run in the debate over historical Jesus then you are trolling for the sake of provoking. Whether or not Jesus actually lived or not has no bearing in a debate over creation versus evolution & yet you have dragged this subject up twice now in recent weeks. Why is that, Thal?

I simply raise the issue as an example of what I find to be the incredible credulity of Christian believers and their willingness, nay eagerness, to reject conventional academic analysis in favor of non-rigorous tracts promulgated by their fellow believers. This naive credulity, when it is combined with a lack of academic rigor and the anti-intellectualism that characterizes much of the politically active Christian community, goes to the very heart of the current evolution/creation debate.

As I said, I have passing small interest in the reality (or lack there of) of an historic Jesus, except as an example of the rather poor scholarship of those who enter into the process of discovery with a foregone conclusion in mind. As a scientist I wake up every morning with serious questions about basic tenets concerning how things tick, and more importantly a complete willingness to overturn everything, based on new data and interpretation. It's more than a willingness, it is a desire to actually do so. It is only in the crucible of change that science is advanced. In my experience religionists hold a diametrically opposed view, and and are the bulwark of the status quo, especially when it comes to "fairy tale" religiosity that is found to be in opposition to good science.

 

[Spencermm]

Ah, thank goodness that there is more forgiveness in my camp. Colson has done much to assist prisoners to transition to a successful life post-incarceration. You may sneer at him because of his illegal activities (40+ years ago) & status as a felon but many Christians consider him a shining example of how accepting Jesus into your life can change someone. The work that he does with prisoners & for prison reform is amazing.

Yeah, but has this assistance for "prisoners to transition to a successful life post-incarceration." been confirmed by historical reference from contemporaries living at the time, microbiological proof, fossil records of those inmates assisted, published journal references provided by someone OTHER THAN YOU (preferably a flaming athiest), and a reference made in at least one Shakesperean play?
No? Then get that weak a$$ crap out of here. :no

Sorry Marvel- but that, in essence, is the type of response you are likely to get by anything you put out there. Think they are just 'messin' with you at this point.
Spencer

 

[Thalassamania]

Ah, thank goodness that there is more forgiveness in my camp. Colson has done much to assist prisoners to transition to a successful life post-incarceration. You may sneer at him because of his illegal activities (40+ years ago) & status as a felon but many Christians consider him a shining example of how accepting Jesus into your life can change someone. The work that he does with prisoners & for prison reform is amazing.

Colson is a traitor who committed one of the most heinous crimes imaginable, hardly something to sneer at, before or after the fact. He used the power of the Federal Government in an attempt to subvert the Constitution. I do not forgive him for that, I can not forgive him for that. And I am appalled that you would style that dismissively as naught but, "illegal activities (40+ years ago) & status as a felon."

For another perspective on Colson see: Charles Colson, How a Watergate crook became America's greatest Christian conservative. By David Plotz

Hovind, is different case, he's a plain and simple con man in the best model of Jim Baker, Jimmy Swagart, et.al. He just a home grown liar, thief and fraud with a dash of kook thrown in to keep it interesting.

Yeah, but has this assistance for "prisoners to transition to a successful life post-incarceration." been confirmed by historical reference from contemporaries living at the time, microbiological proof, fossil records of those inmates assisted, published journal references provided by someone OTHER THAN YOU (preferably a flaming athiest), and a reference made in at least one Shakesperean play?
No? Then get that weak a$$ crap out of here. :no

Sorry Marvel- but that, in essence, is the type of response you are likely to get by anything you put out there. Think they are just 'messin' with you at this point.
Spencer

Only from you, only from you.

 

[Twistedarts]

Never confuse faith with fact.

does the term sheople mean anything?

What does religion have to do with diving?

Are we at war with east asia or eurasia?

 

[peterbj7]

There are eminent and learned historians who believe that the Shakespeare many believe wrote all those wonderful works never existed, that there was a man called Shakespeare who was an actor and playwright, but that he actually wrote very little.

Whether or not Jesus existed (and I'm quite prepared to believe that there was such a man, though not necessarily in accordance with the Christian legend) is surely immaterial. There is a wealth of evidence that much of what was credited to him was written long after the event, and was based on the ideal rather than the man.

Going back to the person who started it all, Abraham, modern research is showing that he was a very powerful and intolerant local politician, maybe the correct term should be "despot", who invented his new religion for his own ends. If you didn't give all indications that you believed then you were killed. Much as England under Henry 8th. Of such are legends made.

The significance of Abraham is that all monotheistic religions since have followed his model, and indeed they have spawned each other. At different times Christianity and Islam both came from Judaism, and of course they've since subdivided into different sects that regard each other as sacriligious. Judaism itself didn't come directly from Abraham, but via (I believe) Zoroastrianism.

The more I study religion, and I find it fascinating, the more incredible I find it that anyone would actually believe what in most cases was deliberately and cynically invented as a way of subjugating them. I was brought up in the English cathedral musical tradition and I love that music, but I find it very hard to attend a service nowadays. It all seems so arbitrary and absurd.

 

[Spencermm]

Going back to the person who started it all, Abraham, modern research is showing that he was a very powerful and intolerant local politician, maybe the correct term should be "despot", who invented his new religion for his own ends. If you didn't give all indications that you believed then you were killed. Much as England under Henry 8th. Of such are legends made.

Reminds me a bit of how Vlad the Impaler, who was no doubt a very sinister character(understatement), has evolved into the legend of today. Braum Stoker is mostly responsible, but I understand that the locals around his still standing castle, including local politicians, propogate and enhance the legend for tourist's dollars.
Legends indeed....

 

[deco_martini]

Ah, thank goodness that there is more forgiveness in my camp. Colson has done much to assist prisoners to transition to a successful life post-incarceration. You may sneer at him because of his illegal activities (40+ years ago) & status as a felon but many Christians consider him a shining example of how accepting Jesus into your life can change someone. The work that he does with prisoners & for prison reform is amazing.

Well, I don't have a camp to take sides with. I think Colson and other people helping prisoners do great work. I do raise my eyebrows at the "Land Letter" which was where Colson and other evangelicals gave "theological" backing to invade Iraq. (mind you, I supported the invasion and am probably one of 10 people left who still do)

Colson's crimes were indeed in the past long ago. His ministry is based on helping prisoners.

I do think however that Kent Hovind is a fraud and the IRS apparently agrees with me. He is the infamous Dr. Dino who isn't a real doctor and based a ministry on discredited theories about rapid fossilization. He is also infamous for making his "Dinosaur Adventure Land" which seems straight of the excess of the 80s ministries of Jim Baker.

 

[nereas]

The fascinating thing about Abraham of Chaldea is that he lived as many years BEFORE the birth of Christ as we today live afterwards. In his day the main issue would have been whether a messiah would ever be sent, and whether the laws of this god were worth keeping or not. Basically, these are the same issues as we face today.

The first issue, in modern terms, is whether any gods exist?

The next issue is which communion rightly represents this deity?

Third is what needs to be done to meet the qualifications of this communion?

A lot of people and peoples choose not to affiliate with any communions, and they exercise their own judgment in deciding what is right and wrong. This approach is praiseworthy as well, as long as their personal standards are high enough.

Murderers, thieves, liars, deceivers, those who cause anguish for others, these all have little hope of any redemption no matter what if any communion they associate with.

A truly inquisitive person will view world history with curiosity and search out whether the numerous prophets and sages in history have any merit. And whatever conclusion each of the 6 billion people on this planet makes, that is worth of respect from the others.

We are quite lucky today that we live in nations that are secular, where religion is free. Not long ago, if you were British, you had to confess the Church of England, or if Latin, the Roman Catholic Church, or if Nordic, the Lutheran. In Saudi Arabia you must worship Allah instead of Jesus or Hashem. Theocracy started with the ancient Egyptians and their worship of their pharoah as a god, which spread to Rome as well.

History is fascinating, and anyone who ignors it is condemned to relive it for themselves.

 

[shoredivr]

In Tuesday's Globe and Mail there was a great article about the Joggins Fossil Cliffs at the Bay of Fundy, Nova Scotia, being named as a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

globeandmail.com: Fossil cliffs' ancient layers a gateway to world's past

"Fossil cliffs' ancient layers a gateway to world's past"

"The dramatic Joggins Fossil Cliffs along the shore of the Bay of Fundy, recognized as the site where the earliest scientific evidence of reproductive life on land was discovered in the mid-19th century, will now serve a new international audience as Canada's 15th UNESCO World Heritage Site.

The sea cliffs have been dubbed the "Coal Age Galapagos" for their rich deposits of fossils from layers of ancient ecosystems. Each time the high tide from the Atlantic Ocean licks at the cliffs, which can reach heights of 30 metres, the gently dipping rock layers are eroded, exposing embedded evidence of ancient vegetation and life."

"The site was referenced by Charles Darwin in The Origin of Species, after the father of evolutionary theory heard about it from Charles Lyell, the pre-eminent geologist of the mid-1800s. When Mr. Lyell and fellow geologist William Dawson discovered a fossilized reptile embedded in the cliffs, they rocked the scientific community. The stratified layer the ancient reptile was found in showed evidence of life on land that predated previous discoveries of reproductive life."

"It was walking, living, and making footprints on land," Ms. Cookson-Carter said. "In evolutionary terms and global terms, it's an amazing site."

From a visual standpoint, what struck geologists from the mid-19th century were the trees - some towering as high as seven metres - entombed among sand and stone in the cliffs."

The Joggins Fossil Cliffs | Nova Scotia, Canada

I guess the Joggins Cliffs would be what was referenced below....I had no idea that these fossils are located in Nova Scotia....cool.

A petrified tree standing upright through millions of years of strata.

 

[peterbj7]

In his [Abraham's] day the main issue would have been whether a messiah would ever be sent, and whether the laws of this god were worth keeping or not

I don't think that's so. It is becoming quite clear that Abraham invented his single god, to replace the multiplicity of gods otherwise recognised, as a political move to enhance his own position. As an absolute ruler he had the power to impose it on people. Whether or not this god actually existed is irrelevant to Abraham's actions. Any "laws" associated with the new god came from Abraham or from others under his direction and with his sanction - this was the whole point of inventing the god in the first place. The idea of a "messiah" came much later, once the idea of a single god had become so engrained as to be unchallengeable, and was in itself a reaction against the idea of the god having "laws" that we had to obey.

Who was it said "religion is the opium of the people"? When you study Abraham you can see this in action.