Creation vs. Evolution

[Jim]

Do you really expect serious dialog from divers? Nevertheless:

Science does not attempt to prove or disprove god. Many religions attempt to change the definition of science to fit their scripture. Literal interpretations of scripture and an irrational denial of science are practiced by those who believe in a small god. They expect that god created a universe based on order and evolution and then expect us not to use our brains to discover this magnificent order and how things work.

Science says, "This is how things work," without attributing ultimate origins to any "divine" being who by definition falls outside science and outside the realm of the universe as we know it. Creationists believe there must be an ultimate creator but make an exception for the creator, who must have existed for all time unchanged. This is irrational and creationists do not try to address this paradox.

Most respected theologians have told us that scriptures are a guide for living and should not be taken literally. Mostly it is the uneducated that are manipulated by so called religious leaders that take scripture as scientific fact. Evolution is expressed all around us. Those that claim to be scientists yet continue to call evolution a theory are seriously out of date. Science seldom refers to any mechanism as a "law" outside the realm of physics. Evolution theory has continued to mature as we discover the genetic and molecular mechanisms. The fossil record is becoming much larger which is astounding in itself since only a small portion of life on earth is ever fossilized. Evolution has not had a serious scientific challenge since inception. Only the creationists challenge the theory, not with science but with scripture and personal bias. They state, "Gee this is complex, I can't understand how it works or how it got here, god must have done it ." Even the most sophisticated pseudo scientific creationist arguments have easily been debunked.

Creationist theory is not providing a new scientific hypothesis. Creationists are taking their brand of scripture and stating "My belief is science therefore evolution is wrong." This is the fundamental conflict that has been shown to be a failure of logic time and again in courts.

Many religions have attempted to disprove science with theology/mythology to their ultimate detriment. Why do you think we no longer worship Zeus, or Poseidon, and no longer think the earth is contained in a hollow sphere. The catholic church used to maintain that the earth was the center of the universe.

There are of course appropriate analogies: Loyal creationists walk around and listen to iPods, which are an evolutionary product of physics and mechanical engineering. No one maintains an iPod was created by god, yet there is no direct complete lineage (fossil record) of this product. Surely it must have been created by god, since I cannot understand how it works.

I see by the number of replies that my brief comments will likely not be read by many.
In any case creationists have no use for facts.

Amen

 

[Thalassamania]

Wow, I think you are well read!!! That's a very obscure quote.

No matter how busy you may think you are, you must find time for reading, or surrender yourself to self-chosen ignorance. - Confucius

 

[nereas]

Sanity is oft in the eye of the beholder, but I do think that I'd be moved out of common decency and respect to give Tillman the benefit of the the doubt. There are things that I think are more important than money and he'd found his.

My take is significantly different, on that. It is too bad he was killed, even by one of his own, and that this was covered up for the longest time, at the highest levels. The whole situation rather speaks for itself. Not pleasant, at all.

Tillman sounds more like modern American unsolved murder, rather than a hero's story. Although significant white-washing has protrayed it differently.

Of course, if you are desperate for heroes, you would grasp at anything.

Certainly no comparison to Leonides at Thermopylae, speaking of heroes. And Thermopylae predates Chaucer, as you know, for those who are easily impressed by a little bit of history.

There are real heroes, and then there are whitewashed ones.

 

[nereas]

a few years ago. Said I was too old. I run 3 times a week, regularly run in 5 and 10k's and 1/2 marathons. I suspect I was in better shape than many recruits, and, as far as I know I was not insane (no wise cracks about my avatar ). But, alas, I was not going to give up millions. I can't prove it with scientific data, but I seriously doubt Tillman was insane.

War is young men fighting and old men talking. (Odysseus in the Illiad, 1250 BCE.)

In peacetime sons bury their fathers; during wartime, fathers bury their sons. (Herotodus in The Inquiries, 420 BCE.)

From your photo/avatar, Spencermm, I would think you belong in the father group. Just like Thal and me, now.

 

[Thalassamania]

My take is significantly different, on that. It is too bad he was killed, even by one of his own, and that this was covered up for the longest time, at the highest levels. The whole situation rather speaks for itself. Not pleasant, at all. Certainly no comparison to Leonides at Thermopylae, speaking of heroes. And Thermopylae predates Chaucer, as you know, for those who are easily impressed by a little bit of history.

Your squirming awful hard to avoid the point. Tillman aside (and I agree with all that you said in this post) the Chaucer post was not a history lesson, but a schooling in linguistics and the evolution of language.

We could do the same thing in Greek if you'd rather (just use Homer and compare ancient and modern Greek). But I was looking for a clear example where the time frame was similar, and Homer was too far into the past, my ancient Greek is extremely rusty (and likely never was good enough to be up such a nuanced task) and my modern Greek ... well it's non-existent. Not to mention the fact that even if I were able to cobble a cogent example, you and I would be the only ones who are likely to understand it.

My point stands, much more than a simple minded read is required. Agreed?

 

[nereas]

So serving in the military is one of the lowliest jobs on the planet? Words fail me.

Indeed, look at the pay scales for enlisted troops. Below minimum wage in many cases, and barely minimum wage in others.

And something that the recruiters will never tell you is that you might be RIF-ed even after 20 years of faithful service.

All in all, you would be much better off with a union job at the local factory in your own small town.

 

[Thalassamania]

I guess Tillman did not need the money. But I can not agree that pay scale makes a job high or low. Using your scale, lots of people who do not work have the "highest" jobs in the world.

"NOTHING COMES AMISS, so money comes withal"

 

[nereas]

Thal, it is just exactly like beautiful Marvell said, that you are backpedalling, again. The point being made was that the signers of the U.S. Declaration signed a document that calls upon their "god" to help them. That is in plain English.

I do not doubt that many decades after their rebellion against King George, by which they had refused to pay his taxes, that being successful in their rebellion, they became very rich landowners, and tax free to boot.

And becoming rich, I do not doubt that several of them then did become atheists, when they had no further use for their "god."

But remember what they signed, and the state of mind in which they signed it (desperation).

 

[nereas]

I guess Tillman did not need the money. But I can not agree that pay scale makes a job high or low. Using your scale, lots of people who do not work have the "highest" jobs in the world.

"NOTHING COMES AMISS, so money comes withal"

Someone earlier quoted Tillman as a model atheist. I do not know what Tillman's views were. I only know what I read about his unsolved murder in the newspapers.

If he was rich, that would be all the more reason for him to be an atheist, I suppose, having no physical needs, right up until the time he was murdered.

Who knows? Maybe god's angels were not looking after him after all?

It used to be that only officers had to worry about being murdered by their own troops (called "fragging"). However since Tillman was not even an officer, just a corporal or something, that whatever bad blood existed between him and his murderer, had to be intense. Troops normally do not murder each other.

I believe that god looks upon all humankind whether they are atheist or not. At the same time, I have to suspect that those who are actually praying get priority, or so it would seem, in this case.

The person who posted regarding Tillman was trying to say something, but it is unclear where the logic of that was leading.

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal, it is just exactly like beautiful Marvell said, that you are backpedalling, again. The point being made was that the signers of the U.S. Declaration signed a document that calls upon their "god" to help them. That is in plain English.

It is amazing to me that someone from as rich a linguistic tradition as you are has so much trouble with two very simple examples of a very simple concept. No it is not plain English and your insistence that it is merely betrays your lack of knowledge of the times and your lack of comprehension of the issue. Or perhaps you are just too committed to your dogma to be willing to learn or to be willing to admit your mistake.

I do not doubt that many decades after their rebellion against King George, by which they had refused to pay his taxes, that being successful in their rebellion, they became very rich landowners, and tax free to boot.

Please read an American history book sometime.

And becoming rich, I do not doubt that several of them then did become atheists, when they had no further use for their "god."

So ... on your planet only rich people are atheists? Err ... what planet was that?

But remember what they signed, and the state of mind in which they signed it (desperation).

You can't really be this dense ... can you?