Creation vs. Evolution

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the science guys get really worked up over this stuff, and testy, eh?
Spencer:popcorn:
It is our life's work to shed light light on the unknown and we don't like it when people waste our time trying to make the well known unknowable. It's sort of like trying to dig a ditch while some moron is filling it in at the same time, that'd piss you off too.
 
If you take evolution to its logical beginning, you can't help but extrapolate it out to the abiogenesis point.
Actually I try very hard to keep my science inside my data set, extrapolations outside or your data set, whilst sometimes the best possible "guess" are never good science.
Really. So the kids never exhibited a bad behavior that wasn't taught?
If you call that "sin" you need to have your head examined, or at least your children need to be removed to a safe location.
The Laws are the basis of science. Without them, you have no reference. Today's science isn't as interested in "why" as much as they are prestige and $. Why is the question that formed the Laws.

Let's go back to Brontosaurus and scientific textbooks which were teaching it in schools in the 1970s. Why are you surprised...it seems to be the norm.
I assume that you have oodles and oodles of experience in science to lend an air of authenticity to such a jaded view? Hell you didn't even know that science had corrected the Brontosaur in 1903, if it was still in the textbooks (and I remember the correction from when I was in school)that speaks to school boards and citizens like you tolerating crappy books for their children, not "science" maintaining a fraud.

Well at least you know some scripture. I've never claimed to be anything other than a layman. When I attended Physics in College, the laws of science were forefront to learning about our universe. You can crack a kids text book today and one of the first lessons would be Newton's Law. I happen to agree that they're not perfect but they're a base. While were on the subject, even the time isn't a constant, so the very constant used to define some of these laws isn't what it is defined as.
I know that each of us has demonstrated far more knowledge or scripture, than you have of science. You learn a few "facts" and mistake that for a complete understanding of science. Talk about overwhelming ego ... get a reality check.
 
So let me get this straight - I'm a scientist by profession, and yet you somehow know more about science then I?

Somehow I doubt it.

Why is not the question that formed laws; rather, it was the exact opposite. The laws of orbital motion (the laws) were discovered long before we understood gravity (the why). The laws of gravitation are wrong, but none-the-less, the "why" is still unknown (potential why's are space-time curvature and gravitons). Mendels "laws" of heredity (1880's) didn't have a "why" assigned to them until we understood genes (1980's). The "why" of entropy remains a mustery, etc, etc, etc.

Laws are descriptions of what we see, there is no "whys" involved. This is high-school level science were talking about here; maybe you need to go back and review.

As for the money thing, well, all I can say is that if I were interested in money research is the last place I would have gone. I just took on a new research position in November; I chose it over a commercial position which would have paid 2x. No one does research for money; its the poorest paying thing you can do with a PhD, and the job security sucks. You do research for one reason only - a love of discovery. If you don't love it, it just isn't worth doing.



So let me get this straight - you think that correcting its error's is a weakness of science? Actually, I shouldn't be surprised - many religions couldn't survive without a good dose of denial - guess I shouldn't be surprised that you'd consider that a virtue.

But, at the end of the day, the above is the very difference between science and religion. Religion assumes it has the answer, and goes to any length to undermine its beliefs. Science assumes that parts, if not all, of what we know is wrong, and has well-established mechanisms to identify and correct those errors.

Denial - it isn't just a river in Africa....

Bryan

So let me get this straight - I'm a scientist by profession, and yet you somehow know more about science then I?
I never claimed to. But maybe you ought to get with your educational comtemporaries. I don't think they're on board with this whole, Laws are imperfect thing.

Why is not the question that formed laws; rather, it was the exact opposite. The laws of orbital motion (the laws) were discovered long before we understood gravity (the why). The laws of gravitation are wrong, but none-the-less, the "why" is still unknown (potential why's are space-time curvature and gravitons). Mendels "laws" of heredity (1880's) didn't have a "why" assigned to them until we understood genes (1980's). The "why" of entropy remains a mustery, etc, etc, etc.
Alright - the "why" is the impetus behind testing an observation which is then written into Law. To say the Law pre-existed is correct, but it wasn't defined as such.

As for the money thing, well, all I can say is that if I were interested in money research is the last place I would have gone. I just took on a new research position in November; I chose it over a commercial position which would have paid 2x. No one does research for money; its the poorest paying thing you can do with a PhD, and the job security sucks. You do research for one reason only - a love of discovery. If you don't love it, it just isn't worth doing.
I wasn't accusing you, in particular. Every profession has its unethical vendors. Science is no exception to that. What I find interesting is how science fails to vet out these charlatons and in some cases even defend them. Christianities are front page news to everyone.

So let me get this straight - you think that correcting its error's is a weakness of science? Actually, I shouldn't be surprised - many religions couldn't survive without a good dose of denial - guess I shouldn't be surprised that you'd consider that a virtue.
No. The weakness is allowing a fraud to remain on the books for 80 years without pointing it out. Even after it was discovered, nothing was done to correct it until the entertainment and exposure value was exhausted.

But, at the end of the day, the above is the very difference between science and religion. Religion assumes it has the answer, and goes to any length to undermine its beliefs. Science assumes that parts, if not all, of what we know is wrong, and has well-established mechanisms to identify and correct those errors.

Denial - it isn't just a river in Africa....

Sorry to disagree. In the years of Galileo I'd have to agree, religion assumed it had the answers and had the upper hand So it squelched science and learning out of fear and intolerance. Sadly in some cases even malice. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Science (body of, not all individuals) assumes it has all the answers and one of those is that the Biblical account of creation is wrong. You can't turn on a discovery TV program today without seeing patently false information being distributed to the masses. Open a textbook in school today, I guarantee there are scientific errors. Intentional? Mistakes? Whatever the case people like me who profess a belief in the Biblical account of creation are made out to be stupid.
You pride yourself on asking questions and enjoying discovery. Do you ever question any of the information viewed through the rose colored lenses of evolutionary theory?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ce4jesus
If you take evolution to its logical beginning, you can't help but extrapolate it out to the abiogenesis point.

Actually I try very hard to keep my science inside my data set, extrapolations outside or your data set, whilst sometimes the best possible "guess" are never good science.
If you never make an educated guess, then test the guess then you are not a good scientist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ce4jesus
Really. So the kids never exhibited a bad behavior that wasn't taught?

If you call that "sin" you need to have your head examined, or at least your children need to be removed to a safe location.
Another misunderstanding of sin. Sin, or sin nature, is born into every individual. It isn't limited to the 10 Commandments. Sin is anything unholy and therefore is all encompassing of human behavior. Any activity born out of selfishness, pride, sloth, greed, unjustified anger, lust, glutony etc is classified as sin.

I assume that you have oodles and oodles of experience in science to lend an air of authenticity to such a jaded view? Hell you didn't even know that science had corrected the Brontosaur in 1903, if it was still in the textbooks (and I remember the correction from when I was in school)that speaks to school boards and citizens like you tolerating crappy books for their children, not "science" maintaining a fraud.
Still defending this? Kids were learning this garbage until the 1970s. You remember the correction? What was the text book it was corrected in?

I know that each of us has demonstrated far more knowledge or scripture, than you have of science. You learn a few "facts" and mistake that for a complete understanding of science. Talk about overwhelming ego ... get a reality check.
There's only been one group on here that have been rude, egotistical and arrogant and the posts are there for all to read. Unlike you, I don't have a complete understanding of anything. So yes that puts me at an obvious disadvantage. But to say I have no scientific acumen is simply your way of dealing with some valid questions and comments rather than answer them.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spencermm
the science guys get really worked up over this stuff, and testy, eh?
Spencer

It is our life's work to shed light light on the unknown and we don't like it when people waste our time trying to make the well known unknowable. It's sort of like trying to dig a ditch while some moron is filling it in at the same time, that'd piss you off too.

If you weren't trying to dig that ditch straight through my front yard I wouldn't be trying to fill it in.:wink:
 
The whole point of evolution, or darwinism, is to prove there is no creator, or that nature itself is the creator. If you have no creator, the abiogenesis was also a natural process. Tell me where I'm wrong.
Where you're wrong? Well ... your initial concept of the "whole point of evolution ..." is beyond passing strange. Since you initial premise is who wrongheaded, so is everything derived from it.
I never claimed to. But maybe you ought to get with your educational comtemporaries. I don't think they're on board with this whole, Laws are imperfect thing.
As on of his educational comtemporaries, I'd have to say that there is no difference of opinion, except with you.
Alright - the "why" is the impetus behind testing an observation which is then written into Law. To say the Law pre-existed is correct, but it wasn't defined as such.
So what, what does that change?
I wasn't accusing you, in particular. Every profession has its unethical vendors. Science is no exception to that. What I find interesting is how science fails to vet out these charlatons and in some cases even defend them. Christianities are front page news to everyone.
Science has had a few, ver few, especially when compared to the liars, thieves and pederasts of "the cloth." Science does a very good job of ridding itself of ideas that don't hold up (and of people who, like you, insist on trying to advance ideas that are demonstrably wrong.

No. The weakness is allowing a fraud to remain on the books for 80 years without pointing it out. Even after it was discovered, nothing was done to correct it until the entertainment and exposure value was exhausted.
I knew that Brontosaurus was incorrect my entire life, the fact that you did not speaks not to science but to your science education, which is demonstrably inadequate, by your own example, from its earliest days.

Sorry to disagree. In the years of Galileo I'd have to agree, religion assumed it had the answers and had the upper hand So it squelched science and learning out of fear and intolerance. Sadly in some cases even malice. Now the shoe is on the other foot. Science (body of, not all individuals) assumes it has all the answers and one of those is that the Biblical account of creation is wrong. You can't turn on a discovery TV program today without seeing patently false information being distributed to the masses. Open a textbook in school today, I guarantee there are scientific errors. Intentional? Mistakes? Whatever the case people like me who profess a belief in the Biblical account of creation are made out to be stupid.
Hey ... We don't have to do that ... that's a case you make all on your own. Witness the Brontosaurus foolishness.
You pride yourself on asking questions and enjoying discovery. Do you ever question any of the information viewed through the rose colored lenses of evolutionary theory?
On a daily basis, you should hear the arguments at a party where more than one evolutionary biologist is in attendance. How often do turn a critical eye to your bible?

If you never make an educated guess, then test the guess then you are not a good scientist.
Scientists are not in the business of making educated guesses. But despite that, it is my educated guess that you know nothing about science.

Another misunderstanding of sin. Sin, or sin nature, is born into every individual. It isn't limited to the 10 Commandments. Sin is anything unholy and therefore is all encompassing of human behavior. Any activity born out of selfishness, pride, sloth, greed, unjustified anger, lust, glutony etc is classified as sin.
Ah, so sin is whatever you want it to be, and you have the termidity to accuse the lefties of relational ethics? How about activities born out of stupidity or foolishness? Are they sins also?

Still defending this? Kids were learning this garbage until the 1970s. You remember the correction? What was the text book it was corrected in?
As I recall it was in a book that I read in third grade, in the classroom, called "Bone Hunt" or "Fossil Hunt" or some such.

There's only been one group on here that have been rude, egotistical and arrogant and the posts are there for all to read. Unlike you, I don't have a complete understanding of anything. So yes that puts me at an obvious disadvantage. But to say I have no scientific acumen is simply your way of dealing with some valid questions and comments rather than answer them.
If you'd raise a question or make a comment that even came close to demonstrating a bare modicum of scientific insight, or a desire to learn, we'd be trying to teach you rather than just taking pot shots at a virtual strawman.

If you weren't trying to dig that ditch straight through my front yard I wouldn't be trying to fill it in.:wink:
Ah ... the crux of the problem. You have no title to that front yard, but you think you control it, a mistake many religionists have made, and continue to make, since time immemorial.
Ditto.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ce4jesus
If you take evolution to its logical beginning, you can't help but extrapolate it out to the abiogenesis point.

One last time, using the smallest words possible so that perhaps you might understand: Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life, only the origin of species. Why is that so hard for you to grasp? I guess your god wold you otherwise?

...and once again, despite your best efforts, you fail to realize they are joined at the hip in this debate. You can't say that natural forces are responsible for the complexity of life without going back to the simplest lifeform and therefore include discussions about abiogenesis.
 
There has been some talk about physical laws. Law of gravitation being one of them.
So I'll take that one.

When we throw something in the air it will fall back down, 2 masses are shown to attract each other etc etc. These are observed phenomena. The force responsible for this has been named 'Gravity'.

We have been able to write down an equation that tells us how large that force is between objects if we know their mass and separation, there is a gravitational constant in there too. This is the 'law of gravity'. This law is man made (Newton), it pretty acurately describes the phenomenon.

Now someone stated this law is wrong. The law is not wrong, it very accurately describes all phenomena we encounter in every day life. Like any physical law, this law is perfectly adequate with certain bounderies but becomes inaccurate outside these bounderies. It turns out that the mass of an object is not a constant and at very high speeds we must use the relativistic mass in order to achieve correct results. So the original law was merely incomplete and we have to use Einsteins relativity theory and describe gravity as a curvature of space time.

The mass/energy equivalence then explains why massless particles can be affected by gravity. i.e. light (= photons).

Having said that, we do not yet have the ultimate answer on how gravity works.

The physical phenomenon has always existed, the physical laws written down by use, and refined as we go, do not somehow pre exist.

I know this is not really on subject but I wanted to clear some mistakes up I have seen in some posts. :popcorn:

PS: science does not claim the have all the answers by the way, 'religionists' do that.
 
You are going to deny that classical darwinism was "to show that living beings can be explained as a result of a natural process, natural selection, without any need to resort to creator or other external process". If so, you are being dishonest.

Actually, you're the one parroting the lies fed to him by his church. Darwin was forthright about where he saw his theory fitting in with (and conflicting with) his Christian faith. Darwin wrote extensively about his feelings about god and how his theory fit in (and conflicted with) his Christian upbringing and formal education. He did not formulate the theory to replace god - he saw it as in insight to gods world.

Now, I know you won't read this as it would actually force you to face upto all the lies your church has so clearly fed you over the years, but in his autobiography, Darwin goes through how he sees how his scientific revelation fits in with his faith:

The Autobiography of Charles Darwin by Charles Darwin - Project Gutenberg

Contemporary Darwinism is what you claim to believe.

I've not once claimed that. I - like most modern scientists - are distinctly non-Darwinian. Darwinian evolution is an old and outdated idea. Darwin had the broad strokes right, but was wrong about a lot of details, completely missed others, and of course he lacked any knowledge of genetics. Over the past 149 years his theory has been refined to fit our ever growing knowledge of biology. Both Darwinian evolution and neodarwinism have not been a part of modern biology since the 1930s - modern scientists, including myself, follow the "new synthesis" theory of evolution.

An alternative creation viewpoint that would fall along the line of Stephen Meyer's statement "Science can't deny the possibility of a divine designer who so masks his creative activities in natural processes as to escape scientific detection."

And? If the above were the case it wouldn't change the reality of the things we measured - the changes we would see, and the forces driving them, would still be correct. Thus, the science and its description of the universe would still be correct. By its very nature, such a deity would be beyond the ability of science to detect directly, but we would still be able to understand the nature of its universe by studying the structure and function of the universe it created.

Which is why myself, and many others, continue to point out the same simple point to you, time and time again. Science does not analyze, or comment on, non-physical entities. Science can understand the inner workings of the universe. Whether those inner workings represent natural processes, or the masked "hand of god", is a question neither answerable by science, or one science attempts to address.


Your response also shows your complete lack of understanding of the religious creationist viewpoint.

Oh, I understand it just fine. Ignorance is much easier then understanding. Its much easier to believe a 10-page story then it is to understand millions of scientific experiments, and the complex interrelations it has uncovered.

Afterall, who need quarks if one has a magic wand...

It is not that creationists cannot get it, its that we believe it doesn't line up with the account in Genesis. <insert atheistic ridicule here>

You don't need atheists for this - the vast majority of Christians belong to churches who find your literalist beliefs just as amusing and primitive as I do.

The implication is that if the Genesis account is incorrect, then the rest of the scripture might be as well.

Or, in other words, your faith is so weak that it cannot stand without denying observations of the real world . . . quite telling.

And there is always option #3 - the one most churches don't want you to think about - that their interpretation of the bible is incorrect. "God forbid" that god may have dumbed things down a little so that those poor, uneducated Shepard's would understand...

Bryan
 
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