Creation vs. Evolution

[AXL72]

We covered the "flat earth thing earlier in the thread too.

It seems the idea that people of the midle ages or the early church thought the earth was flat is a myth that became popular in the 19th century.

I remember that discussion.

Anything wrong with my sarcastic post?

 

[gary-ramey]

Yes there are many more but unlike you I don't get the luxury of pointing to a pro-creationist website as substantiation of my claim. Although there are many, that point out the flaws and erroris in sites like the one you reference.

Please elaborate. Scientist deliberately put the wrong skull in place. Science let that mistake stand for 50 years because of its popularity among children.

I've brought this up before, but prior to the movie Jurassic Park, there were very few species of raptor on file. I reseached this myself after the movie. Roughly 2 years later, there are hundreds. Is it coincidence? Or was it to prey on the innocent minds of children? Was it creative paleontology 101 for recognition, money and fame?

 

[MikeFerrara]

That is something I've always hated about Christianity, everyone is a sinner. I don't see how an infant can be a sinner.

Previously covered. We're born with a sinful nature. It's probably correct to say that an infant hasnt sinned but it will before long.

While what I might consider a sinful act might be active or passive I don't like the assumption that I'm a sinner. I don't presuppose that of anyone regardless of their religion or lack thereof.

The point is that none are good enough to earn salvation...hence the need for a savior....Biblical references already provided about 1000 times.

In any case, that's the doctrine whether you like it or not.

 

[sheck33]

Can you site an obvious contradiction?
Every man, woman and child that walks this Earth is sinful. Sometimes that sin is what we do, other times in what we fail to do.

There are physical laws, higher laws if you will, that govern our lives. The law of gravity for instance. You jump off a building you're subject to the law of gravity whether you believe in it or not. There are also spiritual laws which govern us as well, whether we agree with them or not.

Every child is sinful? Sure, whatever you say boss

Might I remind you that the physical laws you are referring to are man made.
As are any spiritual laws you might be referring to.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I remember that discussion.

Anything wrong with my sarcastic post?

No, actually it was about as good of a sarcastic post as I've seen.

 

[sheck33]

Fellow non-christians.. you guys need to understand the definition of "Circular Reasoning" and then you will understand why 100 pages later this thread is nowhere. you are not going to convince a Christian of anything.. they were raised this way from birth.

Ain't that the truth. That is why this thread will never go anywhere

 

[gary-ramey]

Umm, so?

So - the odds of a complex, sequential, genetic program from forming through evolution and random events is impossible.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Might I remind you that the physical laws you are referring to are man made.
As are any spiritual laws you might be referring to.

No they're not.

 

[gary-ramey]

What about them? Volcanic activity on the moons of Jupiter disproves evolution?! Pass the dooby, please.

How would a behavior like this develop through natural selection. The answer is it doesn't. The bird gets eaten by the croc in natural selection.

Volcanic activity on the moons of jupiter is relevant. It means our known universe is younger than thought.

 

[coachpill]

Here's an abstract of the original study if you want to read it for yourself.

Rapid large-scale evolutionary divergence in morphology and performance associated with exploitation of a different dietary resource -- Herrel et al. 105 (12): 4792 -- Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences

I found a copy of the PDF
http://webhost.ua.ac.be/funmorph/publications/Herrel et al 2008 PNAS.pdf

I haven't read it yet. I may be mistaken that it was classified as a separate species. It did, however, grow a completely new digestive organ within a period of 36 years.

If evolution is to mean "change in population over time," then I emphatically say, "Yes, evolution has occurred."

However, when most people think of the term "evolution," they think of "all life coming from a common ancestor." Nobody has seen this, of course. This study does not show one kind of organism evolving into another different kind of organism.

These lizards had a cecal valve to slow down passage of plant food such that they could ferment the plant material. This structure is not present in the parent population nor in a similar, extinct, population of lizards that used to inhabit the same area. However, the cecal valve is present in other lizards that eat plants.

The head shape and size is definitely natural selection, but not via random mutation. This would be the kind of natural selection occurring in other organisms that exhibit a characteristic that exists on a continuum. For example, if the height of a plant were suddenly critical such that tall plants were selected for in an environment...Yes, the small plants would be selected against, and their percentage within the population would therefore decrease. Same thing here. Larger heads with greater bite forces are required so the smaller heads/smaller bite forces are selected against and therefore decrease in percentage abundance within the population. This is natural selection, but not natural selection of some mutation. This is natural selection of an already existant characteristic in a continuum.

Mitochondrial genetic studies indicated the old and new lizards were genetically identical. Therefore, the gene for the cecal valve must have been present in the original parent population, but not expressed. This is not evolution. This is the selective expression of genes based upon environmental factors.

Again, no new genes were introduced...at least not that I could see by reading this study. Since no new genes were formed, no evolution has occurred. This is yet another wonderful example of the power of natural selection on already present genes!! That in and of itself is awesome!

Thanks for the good read, and the good conversation! It is always stimulating!