Creation vs. Evolution

[MikeFerrara]

But love is tied to your biology and evolution. Being in love with someone is a feeling, given it is a complex one. It is the chemicals in your brain which cause that feeling. As an example if you have ever been drunk you may have felt a stronger feeling of love for someone, who otherwise sober you may not have had any feeling of love for or only a smaller feeling of love for. This increased feeling of love is the chemicals in your brain getting confused by the alcohol, thus the correlation between the feeling of love and the chemicals in your brain.

Love is probably an evolved form of lust, which evolved over time as societies became more stable and humans evolved. It makes sense given the feeling of love encourages people to make sacrifices for loved ones, this in turn promotes the survival of the family, obviously giving their children and chosen partners a better chance of survival. Thus promoting their own DNA or at least their own partner selection.

Very interesting article on love, lust and evolution below.

"Love appears to be a more evolved behaviour than lust, according to new research that has mapped the brain's centres of love, lust and attachment..."

News in Science - How to tell love from lust - 13/06/2005

I'd love your thoughts on this Mike.

All this focuses on love as a "feeling" and evolved behavior for the purpose of reproduction and the continuation of the species. If we limit our view to science, I guess that's all there is but I think we're more than that.

 

[Sas]

Hypothetically Mike, if homosexual marriage was what was demanded by God to not be 'sinful', could you have married a man and had a sexual relationship with a man?

You can't choose who you find sexually attractive but you can choose who you form a relationship with,, however unpleasant so you are right on that point. But why do Christians, including yourself, ask that homosexuals form unhappy partnerships (or at least sexually unfilling) to fulfill what God wants, but heterosexuals are allowed to have a sexually fulfilling partnership?

To be honest, I don't really care if homosexuality is a choice or innate as I don't concern myself with the sexual desires of others and have no moral objection to same sex relationships, but the evidence strongly points to the fact that there is no choice in the matter - which should be enough for a Christian to stop trying to put their own views on other people by protesting against gay marriage/gay adoption/etc. It is none of your business, and has ZERO impact on your life but has a massive massive negative effect on the people you are protesting against. What the hell is wrong with Christians like you that you cannot see that?

 

[MikeFerrara]

To be honest, I don't really care if homosexuality is a choice or innate as I don't concern myself with the sexual desires of others and have no moral objection to same sex relationships, but the evidence strongly points to the fact that there is no choice in the matter - which should be enough for a Christian to stop trying to put their own views on other people by protesting against gay marriage/gay adoption/etc.

It is none of your business, and has ZERO impact on your life but has a massive massive negative effect on the people you are protesting against. What the hell is wrong with Christians like you that you cannot see that?

Who does the protesting?

We've been over this. Others may not be directly effected by how you live your life but I already gave examples of how others could be effected by various legislation that has been proposed. The general views of society and certainly our laws effect all of us.

Let me turn the question around and ask you why the "gay agenda" insists on bringing others into it? Why try to bring children into it? They can march up and down the street promoting their agenda but others can't? The whole topic as a social or legal issue isn't something that I went looking for but once there is a "movement" with protests, marches and proposed legislation, then I'm obligated to speak up in accordance with my beliefs.

What makes you think that you can march up and down the street demanding this, that and the other, propose legislation that changes the school books that children get and attempt to change the definition of very simple words like "marriage" and expect that anyone should be silent?

 

[Sas]

What makes you think that you can march up and down the street demanding this, that and the other, propose legislation that changes the school books that children get and attempt to change the definition of very simple words like "marriage" and expect that anyone should be silent?

Because what you argue for discriminates against a sizable minority of the population. You think that heterosexuals should be the only ones allowed to marry and have other rights. In the past people thought the same about how only white males should have the vote or be allowed to own property. Your discrimination as the same thing except against a different group. I am sure in the 1920s you would have been in the anti-suffrage movement or the anti-civil rights movement in the 60s too huh?

I'll repeat my question:
Hypothetically Mike, if homosexual marriage was what was demanded by God to not be 'sinful', could you have married a man and had a sexual relationship with a man?

And ask some more:
How does people demanding the right to marry who they love affect you? Concrete examples please. And 'because God says so and I believe in God' is not an answer.

And why not bring children into it? What do you think it will do to them? Turn them gay? *GASP* Oh yea because having gay people around you totally makes you gay, massively contagious you know... No, it will actually make them more accepting of homosexuals and people different to them (or make them feel more secure if they are gay as they will know there are others out there like them), which can only be a good thing.

The small mindedness of some Christians never fails to amaze and sadden me.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Because what you argue for discriminates against a sizable minority of the population.

No it doesn't.

You think that heterosexuals should be the only ones allowed to marry and have other rights.

You have to specify the "other rights" before I can answer but marriage ia a man and a women. Whatever goes on between a man and a man, a women and a women a man and his kitchen chair or whatever, is not marriage.

In the past people thought the same about how only white males should have the vote or be allowed to own property.

Irrelevant. We're not talking about race and we're not talking about property or voting rights.

Your discrimination as the same thing except against a different group.

Absolute beyond the pale nonsense. If you are going to accuse me of discrimination, I'm going to ask you to detail and support that accusation. It's a straw man argument.

I am sure in the 1920s you would have been in the anti-suffrage movement or the anti-civil rights movement in the 60s too huh?

Again, irrelevant. Nobody is suggesting that civil rights be denied to anybody.

I'll repeat my question:
Hypothetically Mike, if homosexual marriage was what was demanded by God to not be 'sinful', could you have married a man and had a sexual relationship with a man?

The question is too nonsensical to answer.

And ask some more:
How does people demanding the right to marry who they love affect you?

They can demand whatever they want. I don't care if they demand that we change up for down and right for left.

Concrete examples please. And 'because God says so and I believe in God' is not an answer.

When it comes to many things, the fact that I believe in God may be the only answer you get whether you like it or not.

However, you disagree with homosexuality and you think the government should legislate against it~

NO. I do NOT believe that the government should legislate against homosexuality and, to my knowledge, there is no legislation against homosexuality in the US.

And why not bring children into it? What do you think it will do to them?

The more relevant question here may be, what do you think it will do to them?

Turn them gay? *GASP* Oh yea because having gay people around you totally makes you gay, massively contagious you know...

Surely you realize that I never said any such thing.

No, it will actually make them more accepting of homosexuals and people different to them (or make them feel more secure if they are gay as they will know there are others out there like them), which can only be a good thing.

Who is it that you are saying doesn't "accept" homosexuals? Personally, I'm one of those "hate the sin but love the sinner" types.

The small mindedness of some Christians never fails to amaze and sadden me.

Come on, you can do better than that if you want to insult me.

 

[MikeFerrara]

You can't choose who you find sexually attractive but you can choose who you form a relationship with,, however unpleasant so you are right on that point. But why do Christians, including yourself, ask that homosexuals form unhappy partnerships (or at least sexually unfilling) to fulfill what God wants, but heterosexuals are allowed to have a sexually fulfilling partnership?

I'm not asking that anybody do anything. Who is stopping you from having whatever kind of relationship you want with whoever you want?

Since you already know what God has to say on the matter I'll leave you to recon with that on your own.

I have to ask though, is sex all you think about?

 

[DiverBeth]

Let me turn the question around and ask you why the "gay agenda" insists on bringing others into it?

What is the gay agenda?

They can march up and down the street promoting their agenda but others can't?

Here in Chicago I've seen plenty of anti-gay demonstrations, so others can and do promote their agendas whatever they may be.

NO. I do NOT believe that the government should legislate against homosexuality and, to my knowledge, there is no legislation against homosexuality in the US.

What about the states that have amended their constitutions to prohibit same sex marriage and or civil unions? Not to mention the states that just have Defense of Marriage Acts. Some of these laws go so far as to even prohibit domestic partnerships.

However, you are right there are no longer any laws against homosexuality in the U.S. as the Supreme Court in Lawrence and Gardner v. Texas, ruled all sodomy laws (even the ones concerning hetrosexual sodomy) unconstitutional.

Mike let me say though I do not agree with your views on homosexuality and religion in general, I have no problem with you stating your views. We are supposed to have freedom of speech so you can speak your mind and I'll speak mine.

Just one more question. Homosexuality seems to always have been around. For time immemorial there are records of it worldwide. In most cultures it has been forbidden and punishments have gone as far as torture and death. Despite all this we still find homosexuality worldwide. Why?

 

[sheck33]

Evolution appears to work. But just because it appears to work doesn't mean that it did work from non-life to life to present life. There is in that assumption a jump from science to a faith-based belief system.

Now, understandably those who believe in evolution as the only possible explanation for life will seek to account for any difficulties and set aside some things that as *mysteries* yet to be understood because it is the only way it could have happened.

Likewise those who believe in a Creator as the explanation for life will seek to account for any difficulties and set aside some things as *mysteries* yet to be understood.

The wise man (or woman) will not constrain himself to a limited point of view but rather be willing to incorporate all sources of information to arrive at the truth of the matter. It is foolish to ignore what science has to offer in pursuit of the truth... and it is foolish to ignore what has been revealed spiritually through ancient Scripture.

It seems to me that there are ignorant and untutored fools on both sides of the issue.

Evolution doesn't just 'appear' to work, that evolution takes place is undenyable fact. Also, evolution theory does NOT try to explain the route from non-life to life, that is one of the most used misconceptions. Evolution theory takes over AFTER life arose.
How life arose is not addressed by evolution theory.

Believing in a creator is fine, but saying 'god did it' is not an explanation for anything.

Hey Uncle Pug, glad to see you are still around, it has been a while!

 

[Soggy]

All this focuses on love as a "feeling" and evolved behavior for the purpose of reproduction and the continuation of the species. If we limit our view to science, I guess that's all there is but I think we're more than that.

Biologically speaking, there is nothing more to it than that. Pair bonding is an evolutionary trait that improves the odds of our offspring reaching reproductive maturity. No more, no less. That doesn't take anything away from the feelings that we experience, though. If anything, it increases my sense of wonder about the whole thing.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Just one more question. Homosexuality seems to always have been around. For time immemorial there are records of it worldwide. In most cultures it has been forbidden and punishments have gone as far as torture and death. Despite all this we still find homosexuality worldwide. Why?

Our sinful nature. All manor of sin has always been around.