Creation vs. Evolution

[Sas]

Well Mike, I think we have gone a long way in answering the question of where we came from... which is a pretty big question.

Also, the last 50 years have been the most peaceful in history, we have eradicated a disease entirely and reduced the negative effects of many many more, in Western society women and non-white people are getting closer to equality with white men, living standards in much of the West improve every year and life expectancy is much higher than in the past, we have freedom to make many day to day decisions in our lives (that is pretty new if you look at history!), weaker members of society are looked after in many countries (the disabled, elderly and sick are well looked after in my country at least and in Western Europe), violent crime rates are significantly down. So yea, I think we've come a long way personally...

Think about it, would you rather live in any time in history than now? Serious question. Dark Ages, World Wars, the start of the industrial age... none of them appeal to me to be honest. Particularly as a women and also because I prefer to be given proper medicine when I am sick rather than leeches and voodoo. Also the internet is pretty cool

I think that warning in the Bible is stupid about being proud of your achievements. It is anti-intellectual and encourages people to attribute their skills and talents to 'God' rather than themselves.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well Mike, I think we have gone a long way in answering the question of where we came from... which is a pretty big question.

Also, the last 50 years have been the most peaceful in history,

Peaceful? My son is a US Marine getting redy for his second tour in one of the two wars we are currently engaged in. I spend quite a bit of time wondering if I'm going to get really bad news any moment. Heck, just read a Chicago news paper if you think things are peaceful.

we have eradicated a disease entirely and reduced the negative effects of many many more, in Western society women and non-white people are getting closer to equality with white men, living standards in much of the West improve every year and life expectancy is much higher than in the past,

What about the wuality of life and how should we define that?

we have freedom to make many day to day decisions in our lives (that is pretty new if you look at history!), weaker members of society are looked after in many countries (the disabled, elderly and sick are well looked after in my country at least and in Western Europe), violent crime rates are significantly down. So yea, I think we've come a long way personally...

You can't have it both ways. It's taxes that take care of those weaker members of society and, by their very nature, taxes represent a reduction of freedom. What decisions am I free to make that my great grandfather wasn't able to make?

Think about it, would you rather live in any time in history than now? Serious question. Dark Ages, World Wars, the start of the industrial age... none of them appeal to me to be honest.

I'll get to this one in a bit.

Particularly as a women and also because I prefer to be given proper medicine when I am sick rather than leeches and voodoo.

"Given"?

I think that warning in the Bible is stupid about being proud of your achievements. It is anti-intellectual and encourages people to attribute their skills and talents to 'God' rather than themselves.

Not quite. The Bible presents skills and talents as being gifts of God which we are to be good stewards of.

Let me try to give a modern day example/comparison that might illustrate some of what I'm trying to get at here. Do you know much about the Amish? Christians who's take on theology has them rejecting the use of many modern conveniences and technologies. Are they missing out on anything? Anything important?

I'm in a somewhat unique position of being able to make a direct comparison because my current trade is one of the trades that they employ. Long story made short...I started my professional life as a farrier (shoeing horses), obtained a technical degree and became an engineer...and after moving a bunch of companies to Mexico, went back to being a farrier.

I shoe expensive show horses for lots of money. The Amish shoe local work horses for a little bit of money. I have an expensive truck with an expensive portable shop in it. I travel far and am often on the road for days at a time while my yard grows into a jungle without me being there to enjoy it. The Amish farrier steps out his door shoes some horses and then is home with family (and yard, LOL). While my four acres grows into a jungle, the Amish raises food on his. While that Amish farrier sits on his porch bouncing his grandchild on his knee in the evening, I'm in a lousy motel eating lousy food from a restaurant trying to schedule the time and money to travel to the other side of the country to see my granson (for only the fourth time) before he has his second birthday.

What do I have that they don't?...or better put, what do they have that I don't? Who's the smart one here?

 

[Mike Veitch]

.or better put, what do they have that I don't? Who's the smart one here?

you get to go scuba diving..

 

[MikeFerrara]

you get to go scuba diving..

And lots of other things. But I'm finding that I've come to a point in life where none of that seems very important.

 

[webjr]

And lots of other things. But I'm finding that I've come to a point in life where none of that seems very important.

Scuba Diving not important ?????????
:11:
HERESY !!!!!!!!!
You could be burned at the stake for talk like that!

 

[Sas]

Mike, I live in Australia. I get free health coverage, so yes, I am given medicine (well everything except dental ;p)

Ok here is an article that actually has some data on peace so check this out The global peace epidemic. - By Timothy Noah - Slate Magazine. If you have any opposing study that shows that the world is getting more violent overall, please, post it here. Also interested to hear your response to how crime is going down in most Western countries?

Also, my sister is in the Navy and soon to be shipped out to the Gulf so I am well aware of the danger out there in the world, however it is far less dangerous these days than it has been in the past. I didn't say things were perfect, just better.

Re quality of life. Well the way people define quality of life can be many different things. When I have done studies in the past I have generally looked at infant mortality, education rates, life expectancy, crime rates, income per capita, self-reported happiness and so on. These are all much better in the West than they have ever been in the past.

Also as far as taxes taking away freedom, well yes, you will notice I said "we have freedom to make many day to day decisions in our lives". I did not say 'all'. I do think we are overtaxed because a lot of the money is wasted via collection, enforcement and the like. However I don't have a problem with some form of taxation as it is required for governance. I think again, some small form of governance is important to protect property rights, etc. In the past women had NO control over their day to day life. None. They were totally at the whim of their husband. The US had slavery for many years, I hardly think slaves got to make decisions about their lives hey? I think most people would agree these days that most people have a lot more freedom (I am just referring to the West here). Even places like China and Russia are becoming more open than what they were in the past. They have a long way to go yet, but it is a start.

I don't know a great deal about the Amish but I do know a great deal about fundamentalist Christianity as that was my upbringing. It was incredibly boring as I couldn't read, watch or think about what I wanted, it taught me to not question anything and it created an incredible sense of guilt and fear in me until the age of 15 when I decided to leave the church. So that is how religion has affected me. What I do know about the Amish is that they are given exceptions to child labour laws and there have been a number of cases of sexual abuse of children being covered up over the years (much like the Catholic church controversies) , so I guess it is not much fun to be an Amish child? But in all honesty, if Amish people are happy with their lifestyle, good. I would HATE that kind of lifestyle.

I love technology, I work in IT and I love computers. So yea, I think I have a great deal more in my life that would make me happy than as an Amish person. But whatever floats your boat really, their lifestyle doesn't suit me at all but it does suit some people. You need to realise people all have different likes and interests mate. I love my life actually and it seems you don't. So my advice is if you don't like sitting around in hotel rooms, get out and do something about it. Bad stuff happens to everybody, but it is really how you deal with it.

 

[Warthaug]

Darwin, himself, summed it all up with, “by such reflections as these... I gradually came to disbelieve in Christianity as a divine revelation.” That does not sound like belief to me.

One can believe in god, without believing in a formal religion, which is what I was originally referring to. And, as Darwin pointed out, even before his death, he ws never an atheist.

So he had belief in god, just not in Christianity.

Bryan

 

[Warthaug]

This thread is starting to become extremely amusing. Those on the evolution side are now starting to argue as to whether or not the father of evolutionary theory was a Christian.

We're doing no such thing. While he started off life as a Christian, when he died he was not (at least not by the standards of other Christians). He did, however, believe in god.

Bryan

 

[AXL72]

OK.

What are you smoking?

Oi Vei...you are telling me...I made up my own version of the song, and everything.

Here is how the song actually is sung:

Oh and Now
The end is near
And I face that final curtain
So good-bye to strife
This is the last dance of my life

Lord of this I'm certain
I've been a sinner.
I've been a saint.
Done both good and evil deeds.
Oh, but in the end, I was good to my friends
and that's good enough for me.

Oh good Lord, they say all souls you forgive.
Well if that's true then why
does there need to be a hell?
Hey, what's that sulfury smell?
Now I can feel, the fire, creepin up my thigh.

I'm goin to Hell,
in a handbasket.
It's a Bohemian Rhapsody.
Oh, Galileo, mama mia, scaramouche, scaramouche.
Oh, Beelzebub's got a devil put aside for me.

I'm goin to Hell, in a handbasket.
With my flesh they'll make a feast.
I'm gonna be there in that number.
That's 666 the number of the beast.

I'm goin to Hell, in a handbasket.
Well at least I'll have a view.
Oh I will see the fire, through the rusty razor wire.
Oh don't you worry, I saved a seat for You.

I'm goin to Hell, in a handbasket.
And I might like it that way.
No this ain't no lie, I'd rather be Kentucky Fried
Than live and kicking in Jersey any day

I'm goin to Hell, in a handbasket.
I'd pray if I had the guile.
No this ain't no fib, I'd rather be a splatter on the Devil's bib.
'Cause on my knees repentent ain't my style.

I'm goin to Hell, in a handbasket.
Oh please don't pray for me.
No I don't need to be saved, of the devil I ain't afraid.
There ain't nothin he can do that ain't already been done to me.

I'm goin to Hell, in a handbasket.
And I'll have good company too.
'Cause If I was so bad, than there's no need to be sad.
'Cause everybody else will be there too (Including You).

Oh, oh good Lord, I only ask you forgive
The self righteous who decieve
When your words they twist,
We both know Hell don't exist,
Except in the minds of the poor fools who believe

 

[redacted]

One can believe in god, without believing in a formal religion, which is what I was originally referring to. And, as Darwin pointed out, even before his death, he ws never an atheist.

So he had belief in god, just not in Christianity.

Bryan

I believe in god, and santa clause. I know santa still exists in my granddaughters mind, thus he exists. My concept of the existence of god is quite similar. After all, he does bring much comfort, hope and happiness to so many.