Creation vs. Evolution

[H2Andy]

So in one passage/response you're saying that Jesus was born when the Magi arrived to Herod but now you're saying that since the "star" appeared at least a year and a half earlier, that he could have been born anytime from then to "sometime soon" and Herod recognizing that there was a range of times decided to kill all the kids under two...

it's quite simple, really ...

Joseph and Mary lived in Nazareth. they went to Bethlehem to be counted in the census.

They wouldn't have stayed two years. perhaps a month or two at the most (probalby more like a week, tops -- check in with the local tax collector, and go home).

thus, if the Magi arrived two years after the birth of Jesus, Joseph and Mary would have been back in Nazareth by then.

so far so good?

the star appeared in the East to the Magi some time before Jesus' birth, but it took them some time to get there. they must have arrived shortly after Jesus' birth. Herod calculates the journey's time, and to be safe, kills all the babes born since the star was first seen plus some more.

see why the Magi couldn't have seen the star and arrived long after Jesus's birth?
(because then Mary and Joseph would have been in Bethlehem)

see why the Magi had to be on the road for a while before getting there?
(no cars back then ... on foot or horse or camel it was)

see why it took the Magi come time to get there?

see why Herod thinks, "Hey, they've been on the road almost two years since they saw the star, what if the baby was born back then, two years ago?"

see why he has all the babes under 2 killed?

again, Matthew is our only source for this story. nobody else mentions it.

again, Matthew is our only source for the star and the Magi. nobody else mentions them.

interesting textual problem, no?

On one response you use Matthew as your total source documentation for your reply.

On the next you're referencing outside sources as being definitive and able to complete the picture.

i state (correctly) that Matthew is the ONLY source for the star and Magi and baby killing story in the Gospels.

if there were additional sources for those stories, i'd mention them.

then i cite other parts of the Nativity, also contained in the Gospels (unless you think the Gospels are not authority enough????) for other details.

see?

 

[bwerb]

So you're basically confirming what we've been trying to tell you.

 

[H2Andy]

So you're basically confirming what we've been trying to tell you.

ok... i think we're having communication problems here...



no, read what i wrote carefully. see if you can see the difference between our points

 

[patymeboy]

lets have some more church

 

[Green_Manelishi]

really?

we are told Joseph and Mary go from Nazareth to take part in the census (correct?)

and we are never told they decide to stay in Bethlehem AFTER the census (correct?)

thus, the internal logic of the narrative indicates that they would return to Nazareth once the census is over.

the internal logic of the narrative dictates that consideration. otherwise, the narrative is broken.

it would have taken the Magi a while to get from their land to Jerusalem. They would have had to set out for Jerusalem some time before Jesus was actually born to arrive there upon his birth.

Herod asks them about this (it's in the same passage), and does some calculations: it must have taken them a year to a year and a half to get there, thus, to be safe, he's going to kill everybody under two years old.

by the way, no record from ANYBODY, including Josephus, records a massacre of infants around Bethlehem by King Herod. somethign that big would have certainly be noted by someone, or at least it would have lived in the oral history of the region.

No one but Matthew mentions this. no one. in the whole world. ever. Matthew is the single source.

also, no one but Matthew mentions the star. no one. in the whole world, ever. Matthew is the single source.

curiouser and curioser

:huh:

Who are you trying to convince there is a "problem"? Yourself?

Why would "something that big" necessarily have to be noted? It would not do much for Herod's "legacy" if he was on multiple records as practicing infanticide just because he was an insecure puppet and despot.

Why would "everyone else" be looking for a star? It was just another night; except it wasn't.

 

[H2Andy]

Who are you trying to convince there is a "problem"? Yourself?

nope, no need to convince anybody. there IS a problem. it's quite obvious. you do need to read carefully and with an open mind, though, to see the issues.

Why would "something that big" necessarily have to be noted? It would not do much for Herod's "legacy" if he was on multiple records as practicing infanticide just because he was an insecure puppet and despot.

oh yah? cite me one such source, please, that says what you claim above

 

[Bryan]

lets have some more church

Or some more science class. Your personal values will dictate which is more important to you.

 

[Bryan]

nope, no need to convince anybody. there IS a problem. it's quite obvious. you do need to read carefully and with an open mind, though, to see the issues.






oh yah? cite me one such source, please, that says what you claim above

This is a common athiest talking point.

It is a foregone conclusion that you won't find one... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Massacre_of_the_Innocents

But, does that rule it out as ever happening?

You decide.

 

[Green_Manelishi]

nope, no need to convince anybody. there IS a problem. it's quite obvious. you do need to read carefully and with an open mind, though, to see the issues.

oh yah? cite me one such source, please, that says what you claim above

You do need to read carefully and with an open mind to read and understand what it says, not what you think it says or wish it to say.

Cite you a source of what? Have you been drinking?

 

[H2Andy]

But, does that rule it out as ever happening?

of course not

but at least you should be aware that Matthew is the sole source for this event (as well as the Magi and the star narratives). they are uncorroborated accounts.

that's my point.

guy comes along and says "hey, i saw this fire over there."

and that's all you have to go on. it could be true. it may not be true. until you can corroborate it, you don't know.

and as of today, those stories (Magi, star, massacre) remain uncorroborated. they come to us from only one source.

Cite you a source of what? Have you been drinking?

actually, yes :mooner:

cite me a source that says Herod was into massacring babies.