Creation vs. Evolution

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bdshort:
You do realize that Dec 25 is not the day that scholars who believe in a historical Jesus actually think he was born, right?
Yes. Jesus was born prior to this. The Magi had gone to Jerusalem in search of a King already born.

I mentioned this in the middle of a previous post, here but it was easily missed:
"for the interested reader... this was no longer a manger scene. Jesus was most likely a toddler by this time and living in a dwelling."


Dec 25th 2 BC is the date that the Magi would have seen Jupiter in the Southern sky and also start retrograde motion... ie stop moving relative to the star field.

It was significant to them in that it corresponded to the direction they were given to travel once they had reached Jerusalem: South to Bethlehem.
 
Earlier I gave two general categories of evidence that have convinced me that Jesus lived, died and rose again from the dead.... and I gave three specific categories in each general category. There are more specific categories of evidence but these six are more than enough for me to have strong confidence in what I believe.

However I didn't give the evidence itself.... just the general and then specific categories of evidence.

For those who are interested in reasons for faith I would be happy to share specifics... via PM.

Since there are those who are only interested in reasons for unbelief I won't burden this thread with specifics... that would only excite the primates into their predictable and *offensive* (though I must admit, highly amusing) behavior.
 
bwerb:
...find further information to explain greater detail about the account beyond what is written in the text. If you are trying to understand any document or account, you have to ask and research more than what was just written on the page.
This is an excellent point in general, Brian. Those who truly seek to understand something take this approach.

The star of Bethlehem is just one minor example of this process.

Proceeding from the point of view that this ancient document (Matthew) describes a real astronomical event (and only a blatant fool would throw out such evidence as meaningless) one can easily find a series of events that fit with and explain the text.

This is the important point. Use science to explain and understand... not to dismiss and denigrate.
 
We are spending a lot of time going over unrecorded and unnoticed changes in the sky that are alleged to be caused by the undocumented birth of the contemporaneously unknown Jesus. I find that a tad tenuous.
 
Jesus! It's hard to accept the fact that so much militant simplemindedness and fundamental historical illiteracy exists, even among scuba divers.
Maybe Jesus was born on the Fourth Of July and votes Republican.

Virtually ALL cultures that existed in the northern hemisphere had major celebrations at or near the Winter Solstice, the point at which days stopped getting shorter and began slowly lengthening. This occurs in late December. Most 'Christmas' activity is pre-Christian, including giving gifts, dragging trees into the house, burning the yule log, having massive public celebrations, etc. The idiots who whine about putting Christ into Christmas forget that the celebration was actually highjacked by Christians, stolen from several earlier traditions, both religious and otherwise. In the Pagan world, it was such a beautiful and wildly popular holiday that the early Christian church stopped trying to eradicate it. Wisely, they adoped it instead, and gave it a Christian identity: Jesus' birthday. This wasn't until the 4th Century. Before then, the early Christian churches tried to stamp the holiday out. Some hard core fundamentalists still do, and many early Protestants (like the Pilgrims) refused to celebrate Christmas, regarding it (correctly) as Roman Paganism, misrepresented as Christianity. The unquenchable power and popularity of this glorious celebration overwhelmed even these soreheads and killjoys.

December 25th was for centuries celebrated as the birthday of Mithra, a major God eventually worshipped in many cultures. The cult of Mithra was originally Persian (Iranian), but was very popular in Rome and elsewhere before the Christian era. The Romans also celebrated Sol Invictus, the invincible sun, on December 25th, long before Christians decided that Jesus was born on that date. The December Saturnalia identified with the old (year), followed by the Juvenalia, a celebration of the young, with gifts given to children, was an integral part of Roman religion. Winter Solstice celebrations are fundamental to the traditions of all European pagan religion, and traces of it persist. People who exchange gifts and place holly and evergreen wreaths in their homes are right in step with what Europeans did 3000 years ago. Some of these ancient holidays were presided over by Magi: magicians.

The decision to place Christ's birthdate at December 25th was done for purely pragmatic and political reasons, after the Christians gained control in the ancient world. Demonstrating that some great celestial phenomenon occured in late December two millenia ago validates Roman Pagan religion and the cult of Mithra, not contemporary Christian beliefs.
 
Since there are those who are only interested in reasons for unbelief I won't burden this thread with specifics... that would only excite the primates into their predictable and *offensive* (though I must admit, highly amusing) behavior.

I hardly ever throw feces anymore, I got evolved a bit.
 
Uncle Pug:
I know I can't prove it to you... nor am I trying to prove it to you.

I simply stated that I had seen enough evidence to convince me.
You asked me to give you my reasons for believing.
I was kind enough to answer your question.

.

To Andy's credit, Uncle Pug, regarding his proficiency at what he does for a living.....it is hard to gain any ground arguing with one who argues for a living....and seems to be pretty good at it. :D
 
Agillis, you sinner. You broke a commandment with that vain use of Jesus!

:D what are we gonna do with you?
 
'Vengeance is mine", sayeth the Lord. Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.
 
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