Creation vs. Evolution

[ClevelandDiver]

"The tiny flippers could be ..."

And the Turks that walk on all fours could be reverse-evolution.

I think some time ago a snake was found with tiny legs. This was "proof" that snakes evolved from legged reptiles.

Interesting stories all but proof of nothing. It's more likely only the result of a problem with the DNA; they are mutants. Nature is "full" of mutants. We even see humans with DNA problems having no arms, too short arms, no legs, etc. We live in a fallen, sin filled world and all of it groans under the load.

You are grasping at straws.

What is really amazing is that you continue to quickly dismiss any and all tangible evidence evidence as insufficient, yet you cling to an ancient manuscript of questionable origin and multiple translations as infalable.

You are basically saying anything that agrees with this book must be right and anything that disagrees can't be right.

Is there anything that contradicts the bible (other than itself) that you believe in? If not, then no amount of proof will ever be good enough for you, as the bible defines your reality.

 

[lamont]

I'd like to know what would be considered sufficient evidence for GM to admit that evolution occured. He claims repeatedly that we need to "prove" it to him. So what would reasonably constitute proof? What experiment could be done and with the outcome it would be considered sufficient to prove the theory correct.

I can think of a few ways that I could be dissuaded in believing in Evolution.

- Prove nuclear physics wrong and overthrow radioisotopic means of dating (unlikely).
- Prove nuclear physics, gravitional physics and just about everything we know about fundamental physics wrong and change our dating of the universe and solar system (very unlikely).
- Show a disagreement between the age of the Earth as dated by geological or astronomical means and the age necessary for life to have evolved.
- Show a statistical proof that species could not have arisen from the forces of mutation and natural selection.
- Show a statistical proof that DNA could not have been created/evolved by chance.
- Show statistically that it would have taken more than about a billion years for DNA to have come together by chance from the Promordial Soup (cambells primordial soup has too much salt for my taste though...)

 

[Thalassamania]

Promordial Soup (cambells primordial soup has too much salt for my taste though...)

Here, here! And BTW: primordal soup has much less salt that the oceans do today.

 

[H2Andy]

I'd like to know what would be considered sufficient evidence for GM to admit that evolution occured.

he wants someone who lived 65 million years ago and who outlived the dinosaurs who can tell him that yes, some dinosaurs evolved into birds.

which means this guy has been alive for 65 million years and survived all the natural disasters (such as ice ages and supervolcanoes) which the planet has undergone since

then he'd accuse the guy of lying, "cause no one can live that long, dude"

or he'd accuse him of having sold his soul for federal grant moneys ... or of being in cahoots with the Godless scientists to destroy America, mom, and apple pie

 

[Bryan]

ad ho-mi-nem

RAAAA-Mennnnn!

 

[Uncle Pug]

At which point did you decide that the theory of evolution was false? Was it a part of that spiritual realization or did you reject it because it was associated with your previous athiest beliefs?

This is probably part of the long story, but I think it's relevant.

The story is too long for a fast paced medium such as this. So, I'll serve up an abridged version in several installments.

I didn't reject evolution (or even atheism) initially... I just set it aside.

Actually I was quite comfortable in my belief system. Plenty of unknowns but nothing unknowable. Evolution was just one piece of the puzzle. No need for a god. Not necessary. Everything fit. It could all be described by neat equations, at least in theory. If there was no god then of course the mechanistic explanation had to be true.

But... there was something else... something that lay just outside of my perception. Like the illustration that I shared a while back concerning the buck in my field there was something there but I just couldn't quite pick up on it.

So I set my unbelief system aside to investigate. I wanted to find the missing piece. Perhaps there was a spiritual dimension that was as foreign to me as... well as my world would be to an inhabitant of Flatland.

...skipping ahead...

I found that believing in God and experiencing His presence in my life filled a void I hadn't acknowledge before but that had always existed. With Faith came Peace... and Joy too! Not a transient happiness but JOY.

I also found that I began to look at the world in a whole new light. Science isn't a threat to belief. As it describes and attempts to unravel the inscrutable it brings more wonders to behold. I was amazed. What I had learned before turned me away from believing in a god... but now what I saw displayed all around me was the Glory of God.

Now it may seem silly and unreal to you... I expect that. You may mock... and I understand that... I used to mock as well.

But stop for a moment and ask yourself:
Is this really all that there is? Is this really all that I am?

 

[Potapko]

Sounds familiar to another book with outdated (by a few thousand years) information in it. I suppose that invalidates it too?

Actually nothing in the Bible either historically nor archeologically has ever been proven false. Unlike the continuous reprinting of false information in the "science" textbooks.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I'd like to know what would be considered sufficient evidence for GM to admit that evolution occured. He claims repeatedly that we need to "prove" it to him. So what would reasonably constitute proof? What experiment could be done and with the outcome it would be considered sufficient to prove the theory correct.

I can think of a few ways that I could be dissuaded in believing in Evolution.


- Show a disagreement between the age of the Earth as dated by geological or astronomical means and the age necessary for life to have evolved.
- Show a statistical proof that species could not have arisen from the forces of mutation and natural selection.
- Show a statistical proof that DNA could not have been created/evolved by chance.
- Show statistically that it would have taken more than about a billion years for DNA to have come together by chance from the Promordial Soup (cambells primordial soup has too much salt for my taste though...)

I think this is a good list. All things that would hold a lot of weight if proven. It seems that one tenant of the scientific acceptance of the tof is not so much that the observed data covers and supports the scope of the theory so well but rather because science lacks a better explaination. It's assumed that it's statistically possible because "it must be". It's assumed that the mechanics of the small scale evolution that we can observe holds for for the entire scope of the theory because "it must". Scientifically, I suppose that's completely reasonable.

I don't know if we need to rely on statistics to answer the question of life from soup though. Just go in a lab, mix up some soup and breath life into it.

 

[Thalassamania]

Actually nothing in the Bible either historically nor archeologically has ever been proven false. Unlike the continuous reprinting of false information in the "science" textbooks.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect "total accuracy" from the Bible. "We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision," they say in The Gift of Scripture. But I guess you are a better bibical scholar than these three bishops.

We've obviously wasted (at least in your case and great greenie) hundreds of pages where it was clearly and definitive shown that many things in the bible are historically wrong. It's too bad that you are so committed to living in the bronze age that you refuse to pay attention. Here are another sixty odd examples (with thanks to Richard Packham), every one of which contradicts your claim (don't quibble, remember that only one of these has to be true to prove you wrong):

1. Gen 36:31, telling of Jacob and Esau, lists kings of Edom "before there reigned any king over the children of Israel." This must have been written hundreds of years later, after Israel had kings.
2. River Gihon could not possibly flow from Mesopotamia and encompass Ethiopia (Gen 2:13).
3. Joseph tells Pharaoh he comes from the "land of the Hebrews" (Gen 40:15).
   There was no such land until after the conquest under Joshua.
4. The Egyptian princess names the baby she finds "Moses" because she "drew him out" of the water (Heb meshethi).
5. Why would she make a pun in Hebrew (Ex 2:10)? The birth story of Moses (Exod. 2:1-10), probably recorded during the tenth century B.C., is very similar to the birth account of King Sargon of Agade who lived near the end of the third millennium B.C.
6. No Egyptian record exists mentioning Moses or his devastation of Egypt.
7. Moses refers to "Palestine" (Ex 15:14). No such name was in use then.
8. Law of Moses is the "statutes of God and his laws" (Ex 18:26), but it is clearly copied from Code of Hammurabi, which is ca 1800 BC, hundreds of years before Moses.
9. Priests are mentioned at Ex 19:22-24, but they are not provided for until Ex 28:1.
10. Moses mentions Rabbath, where Og's bedstead is located (Deut 3:11).
    Moses could not have any knowledge of Rabbath, which was not captured by the Hebrews until David's time, 500 years later (2 Sam 12:26).
11. Jericho and Ai (Josh 8) were both ancient ruins at the time of the conquest of Canaan.
12. Jericho's walls were destroyed centuries before Joshua.
13. Kings are referred to at Deut 17:17-19, before Israel had kings.
14. David took Goliath's head to Jerusalem (1 Sam 17:54). But Jerusalem was not captured until 7 years after David became king (2 Sam 5). It must have been rather rank.
15. David paid 600 shekels of gold for the threshing floor (1 Chron 21:22-25).
    But shekels of gold were not yet used in business transactions (this is the only use of the term in the OT).
16. God says he had never chosen any ruler for Israel but David (2 Chron 6:5).
    But he had chosen Saul.
17. Defeat of Sennacherib did not happen at Jerusalem, but at Pelusium, near Egypt, and Jews were not involved, contrary to 2 Kings 19.
18. Ninevah was so large it took three days to cross, i.e. about 60 miles (Jonah 3:3-4). Yet it had only 120,000 inhabitants, making a population density of of about 42 people per square mile for a city.
19. Daniel's account of Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar is historically inaccurate; Nebuchadnezzar was never mad. Belshazzar, whom he says was king, was never king, but only regent. Belshazzar was not the son of Nebuchadnezzar, but of Nabonidus.
20. Babylon was not conquered by Darius the Mede, but by Cyrus the Great, in 539 BC (Dan 5:31). Darius the Mede is unknown to history.
21. Mordecai became prime minister to Xerxes (Ahasuerus), who reigned 485-465 BC. But Mordecai had come to Babylon in 596 BC with Jehoiachin (Esther 2:5-6).
22. None of the Gospels are mentioned by early Christians, e.g. Paul, Pope Clement I (97 AD), Justin Martyr (140 AD). The first mention of any Gospel is by Irenaeus (185 AD).
23. Jesus as a historical figure is not mentioned by any contemporary writers.
24. Matt 2:1 says Jesus was born in the reign of Herod, who died 4 BC. Luke 2:2 says he was born during Quirinus' governorship of Syria, which began 6 AD.
25. Thieves were never punished by crucifixion (Matt 27:38, 44).
26. There is no contemporary historical confirmation of darkness covering the earth at the crucifixion (Matt 27:35, Luke 23:44).
27. There is no contemporary historical confirmation of the slaughter of the innocents by Herod (Matt 2:16-18). Josephus, whose history contains much criticism of Herod, does not mention it.
28. The earth is the center of the solar system. This teaching of the Bible was the basis for the persecution of Galileo by the church.
29. Plant life existed before sunlight existed (Gen 1:11-18).
30. The sky is solid, a "firmament" (Gen 1:6, Job 22:14, Isa 40:22). It has windows through which the rain falls (Gen 7:11).
31. Earth has four corners, and floats on water (Isa 11:12, Ps 24:2, 136:6, Rev 7:1).
32. Earth is a circular disk (Isa 40:22).
33. Earth is flat (these verses were used for centuries by the church to prove this: Ps 93:1, Jer 10:13, Dan 4:10-11, Zech 9:10, Matt 4:8, Rev 1:7).
34. Earth does not move (Ps 93:1, 96:10, 104:5, 1 Chr 16:30).
35. Death or illness is caused by sin (Gen 2:17, Lev 26:16, 21, 25, Deut 7:15, 28:21, 27, James 1:15).
36. Disease and mental illness are caused by an "evil spirit" or "possession" (Mark 1:21-34, 2:6-9, 1 Sam 16:23, 18:10, 19:9).
37. Leprosy can be cured by following the instructions in Lev 13, 14.
38. Seed must "die" before it grows (John 12:24, 1 Cor 15:36).
39. Snakes eat dust (Gen 3:14, Isa 65:25).
40. The ostrich abandons her eggs (Job 39:13-16).
41. There was no rainbow before Noah's time (Gen 9:11-17).
42. Thunder is God's voice (Ps 77:18).
43. Earthquakes are caused by God's anger (Job 9:5, Ps 18:7, 77:18, 97:4, Isa 2:19, 24:20, 29:6, Jer 10:10, Ezek 38:20, Nah 1:5). Or by his voice (Heb 12:26). Or by Lucifer (Isa 14:16).
44. Rainwater does not return to the sky (Isa 55:10).
45. Value of pi = 3 (1 Kings 7:23, 2 Chron 4:2).
46. The moon has a light of its own (Isa 13:10, Matt 24:29).
47. The stars can be made to fall (Matt 24:29, Mark 13:25).
    The bat is a bird (Lev 11:13,19, Deut 14:11, 18).
48. The whale is a fish (Jonah 1:17, Matt 12:40).
49. Jonah is able to survive three days and nights in the belly of the fish without oxygen and without being digested (Jonah 1:17, 2:10).
50. The hare chews the cud (Lev 11:5-6).
51. Some fowl and insects have four legs (Lev 11:20-23).
52. Cattle will produce striped offspring if they see striped poles when breeding (Gen 30:37-41).
53. Bees will build a hive in a dead carcass (Judg 14:8).
54. An iron axe floats on water (2 Kings 6:5-7).
55. Salt can lose its saltiness (Matt 5:13, Mark 9:50, Luke 14:34).
56. Population of Israel at the time of the Conquest must have been two to three million (Ex 12:37, Num 1:45-46). They had all descended in about four generations from 70 (or 75) individuals (Ex 6:16-20). But the seven nations in Palestine at the time of the conquest were each greater, giving Palestine a population of over 14 million, which is improbable (Deut 7:1). .
57. Dan had one son (Gen 46:23), but three generations later there are 62,700 Danites of military age (Num 1:39; Num 26:43 gives the number as 64,400).
58. Levi's descendants: three sons, first generation (Gen 46:11, Ex 6:16); eight grandsons, second generation (Ex 6:17-19); eight (or a few more) great-grandsons, third generation. The fourth generation numbers 8580 males (Num 4:34-48).
59. The quail as described in Num 11:31-32 would have covered 780 square miles, three feet deep.
60. The size camp of the Israelites has been estimated as 12 miles across. Each person was required to carry his waste outside the camp, meaning a daily walk of 12 miles for anyone near the center.
61. Moses gathered all the congregation of Israel to the door of the tabernacle (Lev 8:3-4), numbering 600,000 men (Ex 12:37, Num 1:45-46). The courtyard of the tabernacle measured 100 by 50 cubits (about 150 by 75 feet; Ex 27:11-12).
62. Moses spread the word to 2 million people in a single day (Ex 12; compare Josh 8:33-35).
63. Benjamin's 700 warriors could hit a hair with a slingshot (Judg 20:16).

 

[Soggy]

Actually nothing in the Bible either historically nor archeologically has ever been proven false. Unlike the continuous reprinting of false information in the "science" textbooks.

That's an interesting hypothesis, which, like most of your hypotheses throughout this thread, is wrong.

The earth has been shown to be 4.5 billion years old, repeatedly. How does that compare with your 6000 year universe?