Creation vs. Evolution

[Soggy]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

 

[ClevelandDiver]

Actually nothing in the Bible either historically nor archeologically has ever been proven false. Unlike the continuous reprinting of false information in the "science" textbooks.

That is an interesting statement to make. I think the underlying reason you believe it to be true is that none of the mountains of evidence to the contrary ever pass your criteria for being proof.

Lets take Noah's arc for example. Go to the worlds biggest zoo and pile two of every animal in their incomplete collection into the largest cargo ship in the world. Now add 40 days worth of food and water (no using refridgeration either). Take how ever many humans Noah had to care for the creatures, plus (a freebie here) the actual crew needed to man the vessel. Cast off for 40 days.

If all creatures survive, try it again building a wooden ship by hand to the dimensions listed in the bible and see how you do.

If that actually works (it won't) try it again with 2 of every creature in your hand built boat.

For purposes of this exercise consider a species any two animals that can create an offspring that is also able to procreate. That means you need not bring a pair of loins and tigers (as their crossbred offspring are fertile) just one or the other, but you need to bring a pair horses and donkeys as a mule is sterile.

Every creature that exists today would have to have had one if its species on the boat, because none could have "evolved" by your believes.

Add up the sheer tonnage of all the animals, plus 40 days of food and water (water is very heavy) and compare to the cargo capacity of your hand built ship.

Load your ship anyway. Create instant shipwreck for diving.

Not good enough proof for you? Skip the logistics of collecting all the animals, caring for them and their varied diets. Just add up the total weight of them using published average sizes. Add in an estimate of food and water weight based on published observations. Pour the equivilant weight in concrete into your ship and create a shipwreck without killing any animals.

Add the fact that this mix of creatures comes from climates so diverse that without modern climate control you could not possibly keep all of them alive in one environment for 40 days.

Still not proof. Take a look at your criteria for proof and ask yourself if you are being realistic.

No proof exists as long as you refuse to accept the obivious.

 

[Thalassamania]

Where did all of Noah's water go (and where did it come from)? Mt. Everest is over 6 miles high. There is not enough water in all the polar ice caps to cover that high.

I guess it was a lower mountain.

How did he get every land dwelling species that currently lives on board?

There are over 350,000 different known beetle species alone worldwide and new species are being discovered all the time. 700,000 beetles would have sunk the ark. Did a bunch of them evolve after the flood?

How did the population replenish itself with only two of each animal (incest is best, put your sister to the test)?

I’ve always wondered about that one, the founder effect would be HUGE and the lack of diversity would doom most species.

If, as I suspect, it was impossible to collect all these animals and he only collected two of each "kind" how do you account for the plethora of species on the earth today?

Evolution!<G>

How old did Noah live? Scientists, devoting their lives to zoological pursuits, discover new species of animals every day. How did Noah know where to find them all and how did he have enough time to collect them?

He was OLD, 700 years or some such. He looked out and said, "God help me." and I guess he did. Or so the bronze age myth would have you believe.

Why is there no evidence of a flood of this magnitude? Surely, a flood of that magnitude (that covered all of the land on earth) and occurred a mere 5400 years ago would readily discernible from a geological perspective.

Most cultures have a flood myth. In Europe, Africa and the Middle East that undoubtable is a memory fragment of the flooding of the Med and/or the Black Sea.

Here's my hypothesis...it didn't happen. It's a story, designed to manipulate humans into behaving "morally" by telling them all the horrors that will occur if they do not.

Gee ... you think so?

 

[ClevelandDiver]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

Damn it Soggy.... I spend all that time typing and you just slip in a link and take the wind out of my sails.

 

[Hemlon]

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html

There is excellent info in the link you provided!

 

[Thalassamania]

There's nothing like fear to make people behave like you want them to behave. Children encounter this daily.

Mine don't.

But so do adults. Can you say WMD???

I don't.

 

[Hemlon]

Mine don't.

I don't.

I wasn't suggesting that children encounter fear of abuse, but they do encounter fear daily. My post wasn't directed toward you, cowboy!


Toddlers learn not to mark on the wallls with crayons because they want to avoid whatever punishment (spanking, time-out, etc) that happens when they mark on walls.

They don't do it out of love or respect or because they know how much it would cost to repaint the wall. They avoid marking on the wall because of fear. They want to avoid the consequence.

However, most of us outgrow the need to be motivated by fear. But you have to admit that many people seem to still need fear as a major motivator. Otherwise, would religion hold so much appeal?

 

[Thalassamania]

I wasn't suggesting that children encounter fear of abuse, but they do encounter fear daily. My post wasn't directed toward you, cowboy!


Toddlers learn not to mark on the wallls with crayons because they want to avoid whatever punishment (spanking, time-out, etc) that happens when they mark on walls.

They don't do it out of love or respect or because they know how much it would cost to repaint the wall. They avoid marking on the wall because of fear. They want to avoid the consequence.

However, most of us outgrow the need to be motivated by fear. But you have to admit that many people seem to still need fear as a major motivator. Otherwise, would religion hold so much appeal?

I was not taking it personally. No prob. In my experience they do do it out of love and respect and because you asked them not to, consequences are not needed, at least for some children. Spanking and such may be easier, but I honestly do not think it yields as effective a result. I mean ... I've never had to slap a diving student (even if I wanted to on occasion)<G>.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Without your interpretation, or reading a bunch of other verses, here’s what the bible says in the verses referenced. Let each judge for themselves.

• GEN 7:24 The water prevailed upon the earth one hundred and fifty days.
• GEN 17:17 Then the flood came upon the earth for forty days, and the water increased and lifted up the ark, so that it rose above the earth.
• GEN 8:5 The water decreased steadily until the tenth month; in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, the tops of the mountains became visible.

Maybe you're right, but do you really think that can make the same case for the almost 90 items listed above (and consider that they were culled from a list that was much, much longer). How about bats bring birds? Do we have a verse that accounts for that? That's infalibility for you.

Well, you could call it my interpretation but I think the text is pretty clear and I sure didn't need top do anything but read it to lay out that time line.

Could I make the same case for all the others? Just at a glance there a bunch that I can knock off pretty much off the top of my head and I'm just a novice.

Just for fun lets take a look at the next one on your list. Gen 11:26 says Terah was 70 when Abram came along.
11:32 says that Terah lived 205 years and died in Haran.
12:4 says that Abram departed Haran when he was 75 but it is not stated that Terah is already dead.

In regards to the reference to Acts 7:4 which does say "when his father was dead, He moved him to this land in which you now dwell"...Abram moved around some for some period of time (I don't know what that period of time was) on to Egypt and back to Canaan where his tent had been and where he had built the altar. Then God gave the land to him in Gen 13:14 and Abram moved yet again. Exactly when during all that moving Terah died isn't clear to me but it is clear that he wasn't dead when Abram left Haran. It's also not clear to me why this verse in Acts makes a point of the fact that his father was dead when Abram was moved to the land in which they now dwell.

What I don't see is the simple addition error that your source seems to be claiming is there. There may be a bit of a puzzle here and it may even have some significance but that isn't it.

 

[Hemlon]

I was not taking it personally. No prob. In my experience they do do it out of love and respect and because you asked them not to, consequences are not needed, at least for some children. Spanking and such may be easier, but I honestly do not think it yields as effective a result.

I agree. I think spanking just teaches things that I wouldn't want to teach.