Cozumel Incident 9/4/11

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I thought someone posted way back somewhere about coverage being denied for diving outside of limits I will see if I can find it but that's one reason why I was asking.

I already checked the DAN website. At the basic level of coverage, it's denied for dives deeper than 130 feet. The next two levels of coverage are regardless of depth. The only general exclusion I could find was if the individual had taken alcohol or drugs (not prescribed by a physician).

Oops I see that Texas Tornado answered this question.
 
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I already checked the DAN website. At the basic level of coverage, it's denied for dives deeper than 130 feet. The next two levels of coverage are regardless of depth. The only general exclusion I could find was if the individual had taken alcohol or drugs (not prescribed by a physician).

Thanks......BTW in order to know if someone had alcohol or drugs in their system they would need the results of a blood test. Is that normally ordered following an accident/incident? That might be some handy info for those vacationing in Coz or elsewhere that think they can barhop till 3 am and still make the morning dive.
 
Depth charge, I think you entirely missed my point. This dive took place in August
2004. My log of that dive shows maximum depth of 102 ft. Total time for the dive was 64 minutes. I reiterate I gave approximate times and the facts of the dive as I remember them today. The fact remains that my previous dives did not prepare me for this event nor did any training come to mind other than to stay calm. I have been on many drift dives, been caught in what is called a "washing machine" in the Exumas, fought currents in several places around the globe but never had I so quickly and completely felt momentarily helpless. This board is the FIRST ONE that I have found the even addresses the phenomenon of down currents effectively. I have noticed that many posters will take a couple words of a statement and do a tangent on those words while completely missing the message of the post. How is that helpful?

In dealing with accident analysis, you have to deal in facts......THAT IS WHAT IS HELPFUL.......Not supposition, that is my point. Not trying to start a pissing contest, but there is to much ...........creative license......already on this thread........ back to lurk mode
 
in order to know if someone had alcohol or drugs in their system they would need the results of a blood test.

Most drugs of interest are tested for in urine, not blood.

It's quite feasible to do alcohol levels on a broad range of body fluids including urine, saliva, and even aqueous humour (which is mostly done at autopsy for obvious reasons).

There would have been no reason to do such screens in this case since it wouldn't have changed treatment at all.

In the US, at least, there would probably be plenty of fluid samples in a fridge somewhere to allow one to go back and run all sorts of tests if there were a clinical or forensic need. The only reason here would be to satisfy curiosity, so it's unlikely to happen.


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Most drugs of interest are tested for in urine, not blood.

It's quite feasible to do alcohol levels on a broad range of body fluids including urine, saliva, and even aqueous humour (which is mostly done at autopsy for obvious reasons).

There would have been no reason to do such screens in this case since it wouldn't have changed treatment at all.

In the US, at least, there would probably be plenty of fluid samples in a fridge somewhere to allow one to go back and run all sorts of tests if there were a clinical or forensic need. The only reason here would be to satisfy curiosity, so it's unlikely to happen.


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So are you saying it is only tested for to disqualify coverage for fatalities or does that apply to accidents/incidents? I kind of thought that's what she meant. Thanks.
 
Irrespective of the dive itself, Gabi deserves major props for risking his life to rescue his friend. I have to wonder if his acclimation as a divemaster allowed him to make such a daring rescue of Opal without sustaining an even more serious injury to himself than he has?
 
I have read most of the original incident thread and every post on this A&I thread with a mixture of heartbreak, horror, fascination, curiosity and interest but I don't think anyone has answered this question.... Why plan & make a dive 200+ feet in Cozumel? It seems evident other people besides the 3 divers have done this. What more is there to see or gain by going that deep vs 100 feet? I sincerely don't know and would be interested in responses.
 
So are you saying it is only tested for to disqualify coverage for fatalities or does that apply to accidents/incidents?

It's never done for the purpose of disqualifying someone for insurance or other benefits. However, an insurance company trying to weasel out of providing coverage will use anything they can find.

Tests, including alcohol levels or toxicology screens, are done for only a few reasons:

- Clinical - when the result will make a difference in what we do. In a car crash I want to know about alcohol and drugs because of possible withdrawal or interaction with treatments I may administer. If a patient is questionably intoxicated, I need to know that before assuming competence. If I have a patient on suboxone, I need to establish that she's not mixing it with a benzodiazepine.

- Forensic or investigative - figuring out at autopsy what happened or, under proper judicial order or with patient consent, on a live patient to confirm or rule out some state that might have legal consequences such as substance use. Under some circumstances a sample might be obtained and held in case such an order is received.

- Training and research, either of which requires patient consent.

Tests are not ordered to satisfy curiosity or so a clinician can do his own amateur accident investigation.

None of these is a reason to release a result to an insurance company, but all policies give your insurer access to your medical record to use for whatever evil reason pleases them, so they get it regardless.

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The subject was touched on . .

After TSHTF, what should have been the right decision?

They decided to try some recompression at 60-70fsw.

They could have gone to the chamber.


What should have been the right decision, and why? What was the time to travel to the chamber, and surely the risky in-water recompression could have done SOME good?

:idk:

Jax, the hyperphobia against in-water recompression approaches that seen in the early days of Nitrox being "devil gas". Misunderstanding that's amplified by word-of-mouth telling, especially because the folks that have done it with great results don't want to be labeled as kooks or reckless or whatever.

The big split comes from the question: after surfacing, do you have symptoms? If the answer is No, then you have Omitted Decompression. If yes, then it becomes In-Water Recompression (IWR).

Omitted Decompression is generally defined as (A) symptom-free, and (B) you know you missed stops, and (C) you can get back in the water quickly. There's several guidelines, but generaly it's re-enter the water within 1 to 5 minutes (depends on the text you're reading), complete all stops, and extend the 30'/20'/10' stops by 2x (or 1.5 times, again, depending on the textbook).

In-Water Recompression is used when symptoms appear after surfacing. Most reccomend this for dire situations in remote locations where a proper chamber is 12 hours or more away, or at least significantly delayed. There's at least 4 different variations I've seen, and all vary in depth used, gas selection, times, and profile.

IWR has it's risks - progression of symptoms while you are underwater is a worst case scenario - but, potential benefits, including arresting & shrinking bubbles as quickly as possible before tissue death occurs. Add to this the additional requirement of someone who is well trained in IWR, extra equipment such as a full face mask and tons of O2, and the exposure protection demands of extending the patient's time underwater, and you can see that IWR is not something you want to perform off the cuff. It has to be a thoughtful event with expert planning.

As a generality, IWR can vary from breathing 100% at 30' for 30 to 90 minutes, followed by a 2-hour ascent. Or, a popular method for divers in the Hawiian deep fish trade is descending to the depth that symptoms resolve, plus 30', then a slow ascent including O2. There's methods that are somewhat a blend in the middle, so to speak.

I am deliberately being obtuse on the methods here; if this is something you want to add to your skills, please, go take a complex deco class. ...It's worth pointing out there are some "big names" in the diving world that have availed themselves of IWR with a surprising success rate.

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I am not sure, but somewhere in this thread (or the other one) there was mention that the trio of divers was symptom free on initial surfacing, and it was only at the appearance of symptoms while underwater at 60' did they re-surface and run for the chamber.

If being symptom free, would I have performed Omitted Deco? The quick answer would be yes, but for a 300' dive on air I would have been starting with omitted stops starting at 120', and if one of the deep pair, starting at 160'.

...Or would I? The chamber is reputed to be a "5 minute boat ride", but being in emergency services myself, I know how that time can be a wishfull estimate. If symptom free, and sure beyond a doubt that I would have the chamber door shut in 30 minutes, I would decline Omitted Deco and breathe 100% O2 enroute to the chamber. Otherwise, all you'd see of me would be my SMB.


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Anyway, hope this clears up some questions. You are not automatically, inexorably bent on surfacing.



All the best, James
 
Thank you, James; that nicely rounds out the picture.
 
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