Counting down the days to Maui

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Al Mialkovsky:
Less than 12 hours is foolish, I stay with a minimum of 18 and Kris, why break the rules? Because someone got away with it?
I'd only suggest it because sometimes the rules don't make sense.

Like -- what's a "dive"?

Is spending 1/2 hour in a 6' swimming pool a dive? How about 2 hours?

If you said yes to one but not the other... why?

What about 1/2 hour in 10' at Ulua? How about 1.5 hours?

Again, why or why not?

Now, if you answered "yes" to all these, then I'd say a great number of people (especially instructors) have completed many "dives" they haven't bothered to even consider logging... and that brings up another question. If there are some pieces to a plastic boat on the bottom of a pool, is it a wreck dive? :D
 
The rule is arbitrary.
 
Look what I started.
 
Better to be safe than sorry. Period. . . once you start quoting "what ifs" around new divers. . . . they might try to get away with too much, with dire consequences. its just better to be on the safe side, period. :no
 
KrisB:
I'd only suggest it because sometimes the rules don't make sense.

Like -- what's a "dive"?

Is spending 1/2 hour in a 6' swimming pool a dive? How about 2 hours?

If you said yes to one but not the other... why?

What about 1/2 hour in 10' at Ulua? How about 1.5 hours?

Again, why or why not?
A set of rules that have supporting tests and data, and that are easy to remember and apply are the DAN recommendations --- mininum 12 hr preflight SI after a single dive within NDL limits, 18 hours after multiple dives or multiple days of diving. Simple, but they only breakdown exposure level into 2 categories. IMO, the 18 hour recommendation is quite reasonable for the original poster.

A simple rule with only 2 categories will err to the conservative side for very low exposures --- like the 1/2 hour at 10' you mention. The the NOAA ascent to altitude tables are a reasonable way to judge the needed preflight SI for those sort of dives. You enter the tables with the pressure groups from the NOAA/USN tables, and the repetitive table

Immediate ascent to 8,000' (max cabin altitude allowed by US FAA) is allowed for repetitive group C. Group C is reached after 210 minutes 10', 110 minute at 15, 45 minute at 30', 15 minutes at 50'.

Ascent after 3-1/2 hours is allowed for a maximum exposure of Group D. 100 minutes at 20', 60 minute at 30', 20 minutes at 60' are typical depth-time combinations for entering group D.

====================

The science and testing behind fly-after-dive is very similar to that behind decompression stop calculations. While not precise, and DCS is probablistic, the calculations and rules are by no means arbitrary.
 
Oh, thanks. So, I guess I should look at the graph.

But there is not anything special about the 18th hour vs the 17th hr or the 19th hour, is there? Maybe arbitrary is not the right word.

I think sometimes people become nervous when divers "break the rules", even though had the OP followed the rule to letter, to the hour, yet not hydrated and rested adequately, I would think that would have more of an effect than diving on the 23rd hour instead of the 24th hour. We just don't have a rule that states "Force Fluids and drink "X cc's/ kg" post flight" and sleep X hours before diving (like the pilot rules, etc).

Still, it upsets people to some degree when you "break a rule" even though perhaps other factors might matter even more. I believe that if you are a thinking person and in control of other factors, like your health, and managing those risks, fudging an hour is reasonable.

The guy that goes to the wedding, drinks all night and doesn't sleep can't afford to think like that, IMV. Part of being prudent is knowing what kind of person you are before bending the rules a hair.

The thing I thought was insightful and prudent of Kris B post, was that he clearly identified a more probable risk (dehdration/fatigue VS an hour in the grey zone) in the proposed scenario, which is often just the type of thing "devout rule followers" miss, just because no one as issued an "official" mandated rule.
 
Catherine we are all different, we all absorb nitrogen different and retain it differently. I couldn't ever encourage any diver to break the rules.

And Kris, you full know well what a dive is.

The rules make sense and I don't break them.
 
And Kris, you full know well what a dive is.

Well, general accepted practice here seems to be an average depth of at least 15' and a minimum time of at least 20 minutes. :D

So I guess none of the above mentioned scenarios are "dives". :D

Charlie: Thanks for those details... it sounds like I should get me a copy of those NOAA tables -- is there a source you can point me to for plastic printed ones, or are they just available in PDF?
 
KrisB:
Charlie: Thanks for those details... it sounds like I should get me a copy of those NOAA tables -- is there a source you can point me to for plastic printed ones, or are they just available in PDF?
I've only used the pdf versions, but several agencies (IIRC, including NAUI, SSI, YMCA) use the USN/NOAA tables, so you should be able to get plastic versions of the dive tables from them. I don't know of anybody that has the "Time To Ascent" tables other than the pdf version on the NOAA website, but that's not something you need to take underwater.

The real usefulness of the Time to Ascend table is for people that are going back up a mountain after diving, or are traversing mountain passes after diving. It gives them a way of assessing the risk.

I suspect that you fly after dive questions really boil down to "Did I do a real dive, or was I doing confined water exercises in the shallows of Ulua?". The NOAA table just tells you what your gut already told you about relative N2 loading levels.


Catherine:
But there is not anything special about the 18th hour vs the 17th hr or the 19th hour, is there?
It's not any more or less special than the NDL numbers printed on a dive table. Both are "guidelines". Both are greatly affected by hydration, PFO's, etc.
 
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