Continuing Education... Your thoughts?

[ghostdiver1957]

Years ago when my son tested for his blackbelt I remember his instructor saying that getting to blackbelt only gave you the knowledge to begin the study of karate.

I look at OW & AOW cerification the same way.

There are two topics I've seen get lots of debate on this board. They are:

1. the value of AOW and "when" it should be taken
2. the value of additional courses - "it's just the agencies making money."

Personally, I didn't feel I was anything close to a capable diver after my OW even though I completed all the skills with no problem at all. Not enough confidence to dive by myself and yet didn't want to be a hinderence to a more experienced diver. So I took my AOW immediately following my OW and the 6 extra dives with an instructor, plus the reinforcement of good skills plus the new stuff I learned gave me considerably more confidence. (No I don't consider myself an "advanced" diver even though I have a card - but I don't believe that's what the card means either).

Also, I am a strong believer in continuing education. I signed up or plan to take additional courses because I believe I can learn more, faster, from a good instructor than on my own and want to become a better diver.

How confident were you immediately after your OW and what's your opinion on continuing your diving education?

I'm an Instructor... but I have to say that continuing education is really just a way of getting more money out of students. When I was first certified, you were certified to 130 feet in Open Water, you were taken on dives exceeding 60 feet before you ever got a C-Card and you got for more information via lecture and skills in the Open Water course then you get now. The agencies have "dumbed down" the basic course so they could get you to pay for specialties like boat diving, deep diving & Night Diving etc... You should know how to do these when you're done Open Water.

Other classes such as Photography and Spearfishing are things best learned by doing (trial & error.) Talk to the people that do it all the time. Believe me, photographers and spearfisherman are more than happy to give you free information and pointers.

There are a few advanced classes worth taking... Stress & Rescue, Nitrox and Advanced Navigation. Two of these could save your life and Nitrox is OK if you want to waste your money.

This all goes to why I only teach private lessons. My students pay me about $500 - $600 bucks for OW Class... but when they're done, they've already learned everything they'll ever need to know... and once they take a class with me... I dive with them locally anytime they ask... no charge. I give them pointers on Photography, Video and more... no charge. They know how to recue themselves and others when they're done my Open Water class. They've been to 100 feet, they've done a night dive etc...

The reality is you can take classes until you're blue in the face... but classes don't give you the real world experience. I say get out of the classroom and get in the water... that's where divers are made and experience gained!

Ken

 

[SadiesMom]

I have to disagree with those of you who say that AOW consists of "nothing but a tour" - or at least, if it did for you, then I blame your instructor for that. My AOW class consisted of dives that taught real skills that are necessary for real dives in my area. New England diving means diving in very low vis where using a compass is the *only* way you're going to get back to shore or your boat. And doing a deep dive when the vis is 10 feet max and it's cold and *very* dark is completely different from doing a deep dive when the sunlight is just as bright as it is at 40 feet (I know because I've done both). Having had specific instruction in those dives benefited me tremendously - in knowledge, in skill and in confidence.

Maybe a lot of this depends on the instructor, and a lot depends on the conditions under which you dive. Some of us dive quarries and lakes, some dive cold, murky New England oceans, some dive warm, clear tropical waters, some dive kelp, some boat dive, some shore dive, some drift dive -- all of which are tremendously different dive environments and require different specific skills and strengths. To try to generalize that one class is "right" for everyone and will necessarily teach them the skills they will need in *their* dive environment is ridiculous. The Navigation dive was the most useful dive of my AOW - others would find it ridiculous because they primarily drift dive and the boat will come to them when they surface. There's little use for my taking a drift dive specialty dive because we just don't *do* that up here.

The other trick is making sure your instructor is actually instructing you. And if s/he's not then shame on them for doing it and shame on you for accepting that.

 

[ae3753]

The agencies have "dumbed down" the basic course so they could get you to pay for specialties like boat diving, deep diving & Night Diving etc...

My take is that agencies "dumbed down" OW because of market pressures. People want things faster and cheaper. When I speak to prospective scuba divers, those are often the two biggest criteria for selecting a course. Some students get it that there is more to selecting a course than this, but many unfortunately do not.

Because OW has been minimalized, there needs to be additional courses to assist divers get experience. No matter how good the OW course is, there isn't enough time in the water for most students to be truly comfortable.

Can they go on their dive vacations? And will they be safe? Yes and Yes. But additional hours and more guidance would be very beneficial. Thoughtful instruction (or mentoring) will add to in water comfort. Having someone watching and assisting you in technique is a good thing.

Speaking of costs, OW+AOW+Rescue runs $425 to $500 at two local NorCal LDS that I just priced out. My instructor also offers free fun dives, but I can tell you that only a handful of people take him up on this offer.

Know that there is an amazing amount of variability in what people teach, and what people learn . . . Bottom line, before you sign up for a continuing ed class, make sure there is some real content to it, and that it meets your own needs.

Definitely. Make it known what you want to learn or practice on. Training dives should not just be guided tours (unless that's what you want). This will make sure that you get the most of your experience.

For AOW, divers straight from OW and divers with 20 dives under their belts will be learning and practicing different skills. But for both sets of divers, the course should be beneficial - just in different ways.

How confident were you immediately after your OW and what's your opinion on continuing your diving education?

Confident enough to dive the OW site on my own. I did a semi private course and had lots of bottom time and strong instruction in my OW course. I am a strong proponent of continuing my own dive education.

 

[asaara]

as far as additional courses I would look into DIR-Fundamentals. Check out some of the class reports.... but then again this isn't for everyone. It is worth checking out though if you are serious about diving and improving your skills.

A DIR-F or similar class *without* the gear requirements (except for perhaps the long hose and jetfins), for people who have no desire to do tech/cave diving, usually dive places that a light is merely a nice thing to have (rather than three mandatory), wetsuits are adequate for staying warm, single AL80s and jacket BCDs are the standard, etc.

I have not seen any locally available classes similar to this that don't require all of the technical gear - while I could borrow some of it, I'd much rather learn to improve my skills in the gear I'm going to be actually diving in outside of the class!

Is this because the people running DIR courses don't think any skills and knowledge you don't get on the PADI wagon aren't useful for recreational divers (well, what many consider to be recreational divers - they claim to have courses that are geared towards "recreational" divers, yet they still seem to demand the full DIR gear setup in the overwhelming majority of available courses, though apparently they'll let you dive with singles if you want), that you don't deserve to learn to dive better if you're not going to dive a full DIR rig most of the time (or can't afford two setups, or even can't afford the DIR gear in the first place), or that they don't know how to teach skill improvement to people with different gear setups? Or (tinfoil hat mode on) do they just want to withhold training to make rec divers look bad???

The "master scuba diver" card is about as useful as a points card from a store you never shop* at when you can fast track it such that passing the "50 dives" mark is the limiting factor in when you can obtain it. <snort>

*Note: Possibly less useful, as if the points card in question has a light colored background and not too much text on it, you can stick a hole in it and attach it to something and write whatever you want on it with a Sharpie for use as a quick reference card or ID tag...

 

[asaara]

I have to disagree with those of you who say that AOW consists of "nothing but a tour" - or at least, if it did for you, then I blame your instructor for that. My AOW class consisted of dives that taught real skills that are necessary for real dives in my area. New England diving means diving in very low vis where using a compass is the *only* way you're going to get back to shore or your boat. And doing a deep dive when the vis is 10 feet max and it's cold and *very* dark is completely different from doing a deep dive when the sunlight is just as bright as it is at 40 feet (I know because I've done both). Having had specific instruction in those dives benefited me tremendously - in knowledge, in skill and in confidence.

"So you're fresh out of your back to back OW/AOW course in warm water where a light isn't even always necessary for a night dive if the moon's full and you've only ever done shore dives with no current? That still doesn't mean you need a DM or guide beyond a random freshly certified buddy for us to toss you off the boat for a nice cold 100' wreck dive in current when you don't know anything about the area, even if you're not carrying a light or safety sausage and the visibility's nothing like anything you've ever dived in before, hey, you signed the waiver! Oh, to do a giant stride, you just hold your mask and reg on and walk off the boat, see ya!"

So much for operators giving a damn about things like "conditions similar to those you were certified in", the wallet retrieval skill is really all that some care about. The "Intro to local diving" thing should be mandatory for people who've never logged dives in conditions anywhere close to what they're diving in, whether it's "don't touch the zebra mussels" or "don't touch the fire coral". Tours aren't all bad, in the right places.

 

[Rick Inman]

Personally, the Starbucks punch card in my wallet has more value to me than some of the scuba plastic I've got.

That said, I'd suggest you take all the classes, plus make lots of dives, plus find some mentors and dive with them, plus ask lots of good questions (like the one you asked here) on scubaboard. I've taken NASDS OW, SSI OW, PADI OW, PADI AOW, Nitrox, Rescue and DIRF. I've never failed to learn something good from every class - and sometimes, something bad. But I always learn.

The best education I've received is from diving with my betters, and learning what I don't know.

BTW, my two favorite posts in this thread are (emphasis added by me):

My students pay me about $500 - $600 bucks for OW Class... but when they're done, they've already learned everything they'll ever need to know...

And on DIR:

Or (tinfoil hat mode on) do they just want to withhold training to make rec divers look bad???

 

[Adobo]

A DIR-F or similar class *without* the gear requirements (except for perhaps the long hose and jetfins), for people who have no desire to do tech/cave diving, usually dive places that a light is merely a nice thing to have (rather than three mandatory), wetsuits are adequate for staying warm, single AL80s and jacket BCDs are the standard, etc.

I have not seen any locally available classes similar to this that don't require all of the technical gear - while I could borrow some of it, I'd much rather learn to improve my skills in the gear I'm going to be actually diving in outside of the class!

The guy that was once the training director for GUE came up with exactly the class you are talking about. (They travel if you and a few of your friends are inclined to host one of the instructors in your area) They do not mandate any particular type of gear other than long hose, backup on a necklace and paddle fins. Everything they teach in the class absolutely can be applied to standard recreational diving gear. And for those who are curious, they offer rentals of the full set up.

The class content is much like what they offer in DIR-F (or so I'm told) however, the instruction is provided at the student's pace. Additionally, the class is a workshop so no "pass/fail" grades to worry about.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As far as education goes it's not only dependent on the instructor. The student has a responsibility to absorb and demand as much knowledge as is available. My aow could have been just a tour but it wasn't thanks to the thoroughness of my instructor(did not really see the need to be walking around the parking lot for 1/2 hour with head down staring only at compass as I did different patterns until I got in the water). I also was not hesitant to ask why were we doing this or that. Thankfully there were no dumb questions(the ones that were not asked) and every dive was explained fully. Mine consisted of deep, uw nav, search and recovery, night, and altitude. Of these only alt could have been considered redundant since all of our dives are at altitude but not all of the info that I got during aow was explained before in as much detail. I did nitrox in conjunction with aow and started rescue at about dive 20. It was around this time that my instructor started to become my mentor more than my instructor. I had pretty much decided on what path I would be going as far as diving and he began to suggest courses and knowledge it would be good to have. Therefore next course was rescue and then the following for experience and my own personal enjoyment as well as deciding to go the DM/Instructor route.

Being relatively north drysuit was a natural choice. Next I did deep since instructor level requires deep experience, uw nav because we dive where vis on a really good day is 12-15ft. usual is 4-6 and this to me is not just fun but necessary unless you are a warm water vacation diver where the dm is going to hold your hand every dive. Also it real handy on night dives which we do a fair amt of and in my search and recovery exercise assists. It also has come in very handy on dm mapping exercise. At some point I'll do ppb but my bouyancy is pretty good and considering the number of students I assist with equip spec was a better choice and has saved more than a few dives for me and others I've been with. I've been doing dm for about 4 months now and should complete it soon.

It's been an experience and I've learned so much with every class, pool session, and lecture or presentation I've attended. As an aside it enabled me to use my knowledge and resources to prepare and present a lecture to a local boating group on water rescue and hypothermia from the perspective of someone who tries to stay in the water rather than on it. I realize that not everyone's dm class involves as much as mine seems to but at the same time I see how it's helped me as a diver and as a person. It has not changed some things, I'm still opionated as many who know my posts will agree but it has tempered me on other things. I don't get involved in the war of DIR vs nonDIR because I see value from both schools of thought. Some of the dark side I incorporate and some I don't yet because I'm not at the point where I feel it necessary. I plan on doing extended range, trimix, and deco as well as advanced gas blender. This fits in with my instructor/shop manager plan. Will I ever go full dir? probably not, not because there's anything wrong with it but I plan on becoming a PADI instructor and will be teaching that and any tech I do I'll be doing for my enjoyment and perhaps teach some but dir is not necessary for that. Now having said this there is alot I do not agree with from the perspective of the major agencies. For instance I was good going aow right after ow. I've seen people who have aow and supposedly rescue who I'd not dive with. Whether it's because of them or the instructor I can't say but there should have been minimums for these people to advance other than their wallet depth. Yet the agencies do push for certain numbers and provide nice incentives for ops and shops/instructors that produce quantity.

Should minimum dives be mandatory for everyone? No, but at the same time an instructor should be able to say you're not ready yet and have the agency back him by not allowing the person to go down the road to joe blows dive school that is with the same agency but will certify anyone who can pay. Continuing education should be just that. Education, not card collecting or even racking up the most number of dives. One school(no longer in business) was even encourageing people to count pool dives toward the min requirements for instructor cert! I've dove with one person who records every dive his comp does including the three 1 min dives to 15 ft during a rescue exercise. Me it was three dives for training purposes(recovery of unconscious diver) for another 2 candidates during rescue that the entire exercise took about 30 min (even though each was about 4 min long and 20-25 depth)and was recorded as one dive for specific training purposes that encompassed all three dives. Otherwise I'd be at 81 instead of 78. I do keep an educational log that includes pool sessions and lists names, dates, exercises performed and what difficulties I assisted students with if it occurred. I also make notes of how the class was conducted and what I could improve on in the future. TThis education has been invaluable as A DM candidate and will greatly help with AI/Instructor. Total number of pool "dives" at last count was 62 for assisting with classes. I'm definitely continuing my education

 

[riguerin]

My early recreational certification progression was primarily dictated by the type/frequency of diving opportunities that I had available.

I was certified in the Palm Beaches of FL where boat, drift, deep, wreck diving are the norm (AOW specialties). I also had many certified diving friends with private boats ... many were also hunters. Consequently, at that time, it seemed obvious that an AOW certification was best aligned with the typical diving scenarios that I would normally encounter.

I obtained my AOW after 2 months and 25 dives. In reality, the AOW certification did little more than reinforce the diving experience that I had already obtained while breaking me of any poor practices that I might have picked up along the way.

After several months and 100+ advanced dive profiles (drift, wreck, night, 90ft+) later , I decided to peruse a rescue diver certification. This decision was primarily driven by my experiences diving on private boats and personal horror stories diving on charter boats. At that time, I felt that my diving progression was best marked by the ability to assist any that I might be diving with ... no matter how capable or inept.

From personal experience, I can state that going further takes some real soul searching. Make sure you do it for the right reasons. Diving professionally (free) is not as glamorous as it might initially sound ...nor does diving with a hose wrapped around your neck make you an elite diver. Nothng beats experinece ... nor diving with same.

 

[drew52]

Go ahead continue your education, do more courses, do more dives and then dive some more you should learn or gain experience with each dive and course.

Personally I believe that people who think they learn nothing from the AOW course have not had good instructors or are not open to learning. Thats my personal opinion. Sorry if it offends anyone.

As an instructor I believe my students learn a lot from the course and I try to give them options where I feel they are actually going to learn stuff. Some of the options one can choose are fairly pointless and I believe choosing these dives or letting the instructor choose them is fairly pointless.

If you feel your course dives are merely led dives with an instructor then perhaps you should look at the dive choices you have made. You should be learning with each dive. For the more experienced divers the learning may not be as great but you should still be learning. If you are not learning perhaps look try a new instructor.

I also believe that a person learns from the Specialty Courses. I know I have learnt a lot from doing mine. I guess it is also about choosing the right ones for you. Where I live there are many wrecks ranging from around 8m deep to 40meters and I've dived them all. In fact most of my diving has been done on wrecks. In my instructor course, at around dive 220, I did the wreck Specialty course. Guess what I learnt a whole lot of new information that I did not know or had not thought about even though I'd already done 100+ wreck dives.

Specialties may not be for everyone but there is always value or should always be value to any course completed.

Having said that there is also no substitute for diving experience through diving. When I completed my OW course my buddy and I bought a book of dive sites in our area. We then visited all the local shore dives with our book and dived them. I've spent my life in the sea either swimming or surfing so was comfortable in doing this (thinking about it who knows what could have gone wrong but nothing did). We did get lost a whole lot but we learnt a lot to. This however is not for everyone as different people have different confidence levels after there courses for these people the AOW course can be hugely beneficial in gaining some more confidence with both extra dives and extra skills learnt in the company on an instructor.

Finally if you feel you're not ready to do a night dive or a deep dive then perhaps being honest with your instructor about these feelings can help. You don't have to rush into your AOW, perhaps another option to gain confidence is to merely find a good mentor, book on boat dives where there is a DM or pay a DM or instructor to lead you on a few confidence building dives. I personally invite my past students to join me on any boat or shore dives I'm doing. They just need to pay for the gear or the boat dive my services are free.

Andrew