Confused with what my LDS is directing me towards?
- Thread starter Geobound
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Ghosty
Contributor
You should read LOTS of reviews to get both sides, Google, Amazon, here on ScubaBoard, etc. Before I bought a BCD I read hundreds, on many different brands, incl. the Axiom i3. I read way more people who liked their i3 over a manual control, than people who "hated" the i3. I LOVE mine. But I also got a smokin' deal, like $400 for a near new one which I couldn't even tell from a new one.
Also I went to more than one local DS and tried on several brands and sizes. You definitely want to do that. I'm blessed with some awesome shops here. My main DS is totally low pressure, not salesman-ish, and encourages you to try on everything, asks tons of questions, understands beginners vs. everyone else, etc. They didn't market an "entire package" either, but online they had some complete setups as suggestions, then a small discount if you go that route. Really just easy for people who don't want to read reviews and do it "a la carte".
(Side-note, taking the Peak Performance Buoyancy (PPB) elective for PADI AOW cert. is a great idea, every new or new-ish diver should. It helps you manage your BCD air so you hardly even need to use it!)
MichealMc.....you've raised a good point and explained that quite clearly.....thanks. I took a generic look at why packaging made sense, but after reading your breakdown and that lack of interplay with one another.........really what finger pointing could there be? Thanks for pointing out the obvious to me. LOL.......
outofofficebrb.....thanks for expelling the parts for life program a little clearer for me. I was going to ask the members here why they hated that program so much, but I think you may have just answered it? LOL..... I was going to speak to my DS and have them explain it a bit more, but that could be a moot point now?
giffenk.....lol.....I tried to avoid the dreaded question....."what's the best....." as I know that will set off a firestorm of replies. My original intent was questioning why I would be steered from one brand to another, but as I suspect (and the members here kindly pointed out)......PROFIT. I knew I had a steep learning curve to begin with, I guess I just wasn't expecting it to be all uphill. LOL....
Hoag.....thanks very much for the contact info you've provided me, I will be stopping in at all of them probably in the near future just to scope them out. So much dive stuff, so little time. Hahahaha......
Eriediver606......I had actually started off thinking that Scubapro was the brand that I wanted to use. Mainly because of internet searches based on cold water in Ontario, Scubapro kept coming up as the top choice for regs. It was why my DS was steering me away from a top brand to something else?
Eric Sedletzky.....Just like what I was saying to Eriediver606........My searching started off trying to find the "best" or most "robust" reg for diving in the cold waters of Ontario. The reg is what concerns me the most (as in my opinion its the most important thing you want to have working when under the water), and for the most part a BCD is a BCD, just a little bit different in terms of fit and finish. I have to admit, the look fo the Equator BCD is quite nice. So from there the whole package theme was born. This could make me a dealers dream, but I thought I had narrowed down what I wanted?
I didn't realize that the "parts for life" thing was based on buying the whole kit, so as mentioned since I have the D4i I likely wouldn't want to take the Aladin computer anyway and that we negate their promo.
It's early going in my dive hobby and I don't see me doing a million dives a year, but I will get out often enough to satisfy whats driving me into this sport. Perhaps the breakdown of the reg and rebuild isn't the best option for me to do every year if I only plan on doing small amounts of diving, and not at crazy depths either?
I do know that I won't risk my life and cheap out on saving a few bucks by missing recommended maintenance, but I'm also in no rush to flush my money down the toilet either.
Just to add one more point since it has been mentioned a few times as well..........the BP/W does hold some interesting (mainly from the near horizontal position you get whilst in the water and how easy it appears to be), but my issues is more at the surface. Yes I'm sure this point has been beaten to death as well about feeling like you are being pushed face first into the water so I'm not trying to bring that point up again, but more from the point of me likely doing a lot of shore diving and making it easier for me to get to my destination, coupled with a bad back and not wanting to struggle at the surface.
However I can pose those questions in a different thread as I'm sure there is already one or two of them kicking around. LOL....
Please note that all of the advice given to me so far has been greatly appreciated, and I have read and considered every post. In fact I've got a pad of paper beside me that I've been taking notes on, and can't wait to see my DS now.
Thanks again,
John
outofofficebrb.....thanks for expelling the parts for life program a little clearer for me. I was going to ask the members here why they hated that program so much, but I think you may have just answered it? LOL..... I was going to speak to my DS and have them explain it a bit more, but that could be a moot point now?
giffenk.....lol.....I tried to avoid the dreaded question....."what's the best....." as I know that will set off a firestorm of replies. My original intent was questioning why I would be steered from one brand to another, but as I suspect (and the members here kindly pointed out)......PROFIT. I knew I had a steep learning curve to begin with, I guess I just wasn't expecting it to be all uphill. LOL....
Hoag.....thanks very much for the contact info you've provided me, I will be stopping in at all of them probably in the near future just to scope them out. So much dive stuff, so little time. Hahahaha......
Eriediver606......I had actually started off thinking that Scubapro was the brand that I wanted to use. Mainly because of internet searches based on cold water in Ontario, Scubapro kept coming up as the top choice for regs. It was why my DS was steering me away from a top brand to something else?
Eric Sedletzky.....Just like what I was saying to Eriediver606........My searching started off trying to find the "best" or most "robust" reg for diving in the cold waters of Ontario. The reg is what concerns me the most (as in my opinion its the most important thing you want to have working when under the water), and for the most part a BCD is a BCD, just a little bit different in terms of fit and finish. I have to admit, the look fo the Equator BCD is quite nice. So from there the whole package theme was born. This could make me a dealers dream, but I thought I had narrowed down what I wanted?
I didn't realize that the "parts for life" thing was based on buying the whole kit, so as mentioned since I have the D4i I likely wouldn't want to take the Aladin computer anyway and that we negate their promo.
It's early going in my dive hobby and I don't see me doing a million dives a year, but I will get out often enough to satisfy whats driving me into this sport. Perhaps the breakdown of the reg and rebuild isn't the best option for me to do every year if I only plan on doing small amounts of diving, and not at crazy depths either?
I do know that I won't risk my life and cheap out on saving a few bucks by missing recommended maintenance, but I'm also in no rush to flush my money down the toilet either.
Just to add one more point since it has been mentioned a few times as well..........the BP/W does hold some interesting (mainly from the near horizontal position you get whilst in the water and how easy it appears to be), but my issues is more at the surface. Yes I'm sure this point has been beaten to death as well about feeling like you are being pushed face first into the water so I'm not trying to bring that point up again, but more from the point of me likely doing a lot of shore diving and making it easier for me to get to my destination, coupled with a bad back and not wanting to struggle at the surface.
However I can pose those questions in a different thread as I'm sure there is already one or two of them kicking around. LOL....
Please note that all of the advice given to me so far has been greatly appreciated, and I have read and considered every post. In fact I've got a pad of paper beside me that I've been taking notes on, and can't wait to see my DS now.
Thanks again,
John
I started diving 20 years ago, and I bought a back inflate BCD without giving it much thought--it was a good deal, and I didn't know the difference. I used it for years before I heard someone tell me that it pushed you forward on the surface. I didn't know that until then. I use a BP/W now, and it doesn't do it to me, except as I will explain. If you know how to hold your body on the surface, it doesn't happen.
Here's the exception I discovered a while ago. I was teaching a class in swimming pool, and what I was doing included having some weight belts laden with lots of weight on the bottom of the pool. At the end of the session, I had to bring the weights up, and I elected to do something I would never do in a real OW situation--use my wing as a lift bag by inflating it enough to get those weights to the surface. To do that, I had to fill it completely. I got to the surface and barely had my head above water. I put the weight belts on the side of the pool and was instantly elevated to the full extent of that wing, with much of my body rising above the water. I tipped forward. So, yes, if you grossly overinflate your wing so that you rise far above the water, you will tip forward. There is a simple solution. Don't do that.
Ghosty
Contributor
I hate that as well, and love that I chose the Axiom with hybrid front/back air pockets. If you have to float on the surface, waiting for a long line of people still trying to drop off the boat, it's a complete pleasure just floating at the surface, not angled forward. Especially noticeable in less than calm seas/swells. Of course this might vary for people of different body types, body fat%, etc Just my 2cents.
Some thoughts from another new diver...
I purchased a package deal after completing my open water dives. It was a regulator, BC, and (console) dive computer. I had a watch that showed me depth and dive time. I've had that equipment for a year, now...and have no real regrets about my purchase.
The BC is a back inflate - my choice - and I prefer it over the jacket BC I used for my owc. I still have the reg, and had no negative experiences with it; but, due to my personal habits (flaws), I now have two other regs - more on those in a moment.
I also still have, and like, the console computer. It is pretty basic, (AL i300); but it certainly meets my needs. I got used to checking my watch for the basics, rather than the computer; so, when I don't bring it, I miss the convenience of having that information on my wrist. (I sometimes don't bring it because it is difficult to get on over wetsuit, and it has twice given me very erroneous depth readings - not during the dive that I've noticed, but in the log function.) I've recently purchased a new computer, a wrist version... and I have no intention of giving up my console. I have my compass mounted there, and it's quite convenient to check both computer and spg when I'm using it. Besides, there's nothing wrong with a bit of redundancy... in fact, a good deal of said redundancy seems to be desired in this hobby. (I also know people that wear two wrist mounted computers, in case the Aladdin in question is not the console). Don't let the computer talk you out of the deal, if you otherwise choose the scubapro package.
Back to the regs - that I have bought new regs is relevant only because of their similarity to the ones you are considering. One is a Scubapro - mk17Evo, G260, R195. I've been using it exclusively for about 2 months; and I'm very pleased with it. I found no real fault with my first reg...the impetus behind the purchase was being told that I couldn't use it for a course (we were to encounter temperatures below those for which it was "rated"). I've also acquired an Apeks reg - xtx100/xtx50/xtx40 - no use yet because I just received the xtx50, and am awaiting the hose. I had no reason to buy it other than "want" and finding good enough deals to make it easy to convince myself. I have no doubt that I'll like that every bit as much as the SP reg...which leaves the fate of my first to be determined. (I have a plan, which could see it used and appreciated in my possession...if that doesn't work out, it will have to go).
Best of luck with your decision
I purchased a package deal after completing my open water dives. It was a regulator, BC, and (console) dive computer. I had a watch that showed me depth and dive time. I've had that equipment for a year, now...and have no real regrets about my purchase.
The BC is a back inflate - my choice - and I prefer it over the jacket BC I used for my owc. I still have the reg, and had no negative experiences with it; but, due to my personal habits (flaws), I now have two other regs - more on those in a moment.
I also still have, and like, the console computer. It is pretty basic, (AL i300); but it certainly meets my needs. I got used to checking my watch for the basics, rather than the computer; so, when I don't bring it, I miss the convenience of having that information on my wrist. (I sometimes don't bring it because it is difficult to get on over wetsuit, and it has twice given me very erroneous depth readings - not during the dive that I've noticed, but in the log function.) I've recently purchased a new computer, a wrist version... and I have no intention of giving up my console. I have my compass mounted there, and it's quite convenient to check both computer and spg when I'm using it. Besides, there's nothing wrong with a bit of redundancy... in fact, a good deal of said redundancy seems to be desired in this hobby. (I also know people that wear two wrist mounted computers, in case the Aladdin in question is not the console). Don't let the computer talk you out of the deal, if you otherwise choose the scubapro package.
Back to the regs - that I have bought new regs is relevant only because of their similarity to the ones you are considering. One is a Scubapro - mk17Evo, G260, R195. I've been using it exclusively for about 2 months; and I'm very pleased with it. I found no real fault with my first reg...the impetus behind the purchase was being told that I couldn't use it for a course (we were to encounter temperatures below those for which it was "rated"). I've also acquired an Apeks reg - xtx100/xtx50/xtx40 - no use yet because I just received the xtx50, and am awaiting the hose. I had no reason to buy it other than "want" and finding good enough deals to make it easy to convince myself. I have no doubt that I'll like that every bit as much as the SP reg...which leaves the fate of my first to be determined. (I have a plan, which could see it used and appreciated in my possession...if that doesn't work out, it will have to go).
Best of luck with your decision
Ghosty I missed your comment the first time around, but wanted to reply to it now. Thanks for your input on the I3 system. It appears that there are no fence sitter on this, as there are on other items. You either like it or hate it. It still leaves a noob scratching his head. LOL.....
As for your recommendation about the PPB course, I think that's a great idea and I will most certainly look into it.
boulderjohn......interesting comment on the back inflate system. I will have to look at the differences between back inflate, BP/W, and hybrid. Apparently I didn't read enough, as I'm still confused. LOL.... I think one of the options that was available to me (yes in another package) was the Axiom.......although I think it came with the I3?? Hahahaha.....
hhmore.....thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm pleased to hear that your Scubapro first, second and octo is exactly what I was looking at, and in all likelihood will end up going that route.
I'm anxious to get my kit and get in the water, but really I've waited this long what's a few more weeks. Besides, ice diving sounds nice?!?! Hahahahaha.......
As for your recommendation about the PPB course, I think that's a great idea and I will most certainly look into it.
boulderjohn......interesting comment on the back inflate system. I will have to look at the differences between back inflate, BP/W, and hybrid. Apparently I didn't read enough, as I'm still confused. LOL.... I think one of the options that was available to me (yes in another package) was the Axiom.......although I think it came with the I3?? Hahahaha.....
hhmore.....thanks for taking the time to reply. I'm pleased to hear that your Scubapro first, second and octo is exactly what I was looking at, and in all likelihood will end up going that route.
I'm anxious to get my kit and get in the water, but really I've waited this long what's a few more weeks. Besides, ice diving sounds nice?!?! Hahahahaha.......
MichaelMc
Working toward Cenotes
@Geobound, Complexity is bad underwater. We had a student with an i3, it adds unneeded complexity, which is just a bad idea for no compelling reason in this case.
On BP/W, you can get trimmed fine in an all-in-one back inflate, or even jacket BC. Several here will tell you BP/W is not needed and their jacket or all-in-one back inflate does them fine. Apparently they are happy. And they're right, it is not needed. If you have an all-in-one dialed for you, there may be no big reason to switch. Unless you'd rather more flexible and maybe robust gear.
BP/W has some advantages. Its metal plate and 2" straps make it easy to attach small pockets of trim weights almost anywhere on back, shoulders, front, or ditchable on waist. A buddy is struggling trimming his jacket BC -- without turtling from weight placed on cam straps -- as he has few other attachment options. I'm working with him, but 2" straps and a nice plate to attach anything would make it much easier. Also, if you have a *lot* of weight, a steel plate can put part of that weight right above your buoyant lungs, while still keeping some free as trim or ditchable. BP/W has flexibility of weight placement, wing size, and customization with anything that fits on a 2" strap. All the components -- plate, wing, webbing, weight and gear pockets -- have extremely loose interface needs -- usually just 2" webbing -- allowing sourcing or replacement of components from many manufacturers! Metal plates, industrial strength webbing, and metal hardware are really robust. As a bonus, PB/W are often inexpensive.
ScubaBoard does not represent the general diving population, it certainly spends more time and focus on the sport. That might represent a more researched and possibly experienced take on issues. From reading, you'll see many here dive BP/W. Take a read through the BC sub forum.
On being pulled face forward, I've only experienced that when I put way too much of my weight on the front of my weight belt and harness. I only did that briefly, as underwater it make it hard to roll to the side. My keel heavy front kept rolling me back to point down. With my weight better distributed front to back -- how I want to dive anyway -- I've had no issues on the surface, in the ocean and with beach surf entry/exit. I can easily back/side/front surface swim, or better remove the rig and use it like a mini raft to paddle along looking about.
On BP/W, you can get trimmed fine in an all-in-one back inflate, or even jacket BC. Several here will tell you BP/W is not needed and their jacket or all-in-one back inflate does them fine. Apparently they are happy. And they're right, it is not needed. If you have an all-in-one dialed for you, there may be no big reason to switch. Unless you'd rather more flexible and maybe robust gear.
BP/W has some advantages. Its metal plate and 2" straps make it easy to attach small pockets of trim weights almost anywhere on back, shoulders, front, or ditchable on waist. A buddy is struggling trimming his jacket BC -- without turtling from weight placed on cam straps -- as he has few other attachment options. I'm working with him, but 2" straps and a nice plate to attach anything would make it much easier. Also, if you have a *lot* of weight, a steel plate can put part of that weight right above your buoyant lungs, while still keeping some free as trim or ditchable. BP/W has flexibility of weight placement, wing size, and customization with anything that fits on a 2" strap. All the components -- plate, wing, webbing, weight and gear pockets -- have extremely loose interface needs -- usually just 2" webbing -- allowing sourcing or replacement of components from many manufacturers! Metal plates, industrial strength webbing, and metal hardware are really robust. As a bonus, PB/W are often inexpensive.
ScubaBoard does not represent the general diving population, it certainly spends more time and focus on the sport. That might represent a more researched and possibly experienced take on issues. From reading, you'll see many here dive BP/W. Take a read through the BC sub forum.
On being pulled face forward, I've only experienced that when I put way too much of my weight on the front of my weight belt and harness. I only did that briefly, as underwater it make it hard to roll to the side. My keel heavy front kept rolling me back to point down. With my weight better distributed front to back -- how I want to dive anyway -- I've had no issues on the surface, in the ocean and with beach surf entry/exit. I can easily back/side/front surface swim, or better remove the rig and use it like a mini raft to paddle along looking about.
Ghosty
Contributor
Yeah, no middle-ground people, which always worries me. BUT, like I said, a few years ago when I was in the market shopping for my first BCD, I remember I read a LOT more positives than the few semi-obscure oddball, very specific reasons for the haters. One was that it feels "bulky". I realize that with my Axiom, but that's because it has many pockets, straps, and is really just not made to be "streamlined" like some lighter models. I still like having those though. Also, someone mentioned the i3 lever getting tangled by kelp, that sounds about as a rare situation as I can think of, lol! But I understand, for those diving in those environments (Monterey Bay?), maybe it gets really bad. I've never had an issue with mine, KNOCK ON WOOD. And would buy another Aqualung again. Hope this one lasts. My next BCD will be a more streamlined kind like the pro's here use, BP/W or whatever. Makes you feel like you're "flying" underwater, with minimal baggage to haul around on your back.
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