Concerns on PADI open water course.

[daylight]

Walter and Mike,
I've read numerous posts authored by the two of you over the last couple of years. I appreciate the integrity and commitment you both consistently espouse. I would enjoy your philosophical postions when visiting this board. I regarded myself as only a diver pursuing my own goals until yesterday.

The short version is that I was asked to DM a private Open Water Certification with an Instrucor I don't normally work with. I arrived early and was geared up when the "Class" arrived. Mom, Dad and 10-year old son ready to be certified. All decked out like poster kids for the equipment manufacturer. I stood by as the instructor briefed the trio on the planned activities. First of all, I don't believe a 10-year old should be certified even as a junior. The reason being, a 10 year old has a 10-year old's maturity and attention span. But thats just me.

When they all got on the platform for skills demonstration, the show really got going. Now I realized why a private class OW cert wanted a DM. Mom was on the verge of panic with her death grip on the platform and had poor water skills while dad and son demonstrated that they didn't have a clue regarding buoyancy control or controlled ascents.

I took the instructor aside between dives a told him I was concerned that this group was even capable of a confined water session let alone ready for open water. I suggested they go back to the pool for remedial training. He informed me that the family had spent a lot of money on equipment with the shop and had a trip scheduled very soon. They were going to be certified no matter what. After thinking it over for about two seconds, I informed the instructor that I wouldn't be able to continue with this charade and had other commitments. My days as a DM for this shop is probably history. No big deal.

As a consultant, I frequently need to do root cause analysis. I think a lot of the "problem" we are all concerned with is how diving is being marketed. It has been marketed that diving is low risk and accessable to anyone. "You too can soon be enjoying the tropical aquatic wonderland. Anyone can pass this course. Hell, you don't even need to be able to swim and we'll certify the kids too". The marketing is performed by the equipment manufacturers, certification agencies, and travel businesses. Product and service sales and delivery is performed by your friendly unregulated cottage industry, AKA local dive shop. This is a highly competitive business under pressure from slim margins compounded by increased internet shopping by the customer.

The customer has expectations of high service levels with low shop loyalty. Most want to quickly get a Certification, fall in the water and look at the pretty fish and coral. They will shop for the best deal on equipment and travel on the Internet. The shops try to satisfy the customers expectations while selling the highest margin equipment, training, and trips. Instructors are pressured to move'em along in the classes and graduate 100% of the students while selling color coordinated accessories and danglies to all. No wonder a few folks with integrity question this state of affairs. Ship'em off to the caribbean and let the Divemasters in Coz deal with'em.

There's something here for everyone. Along comes the DIR folks and market an elitist approach while also offering some specially branded equipment required to be identified with this group. Brilliant plan.

All the while everyone is hoping that they don't kill too many customers and bring in a goverment regulatory agency similar to the FAA and end the fun. Then it will get expensive, slow and cumbersome to fall in the water and look at the pretty fish and coral.

Meanwhile I'll keep breathing voodoo gas and trying to achieve my wierd goals. I hope this hasn't been too caustic or pessimistic. I am not trolling and don't intend to offend all the zealots on this fine board. I just needed to vent, Thanks for your time reading my ramblings.
Be safe,
Larry

 

[daylight]

Sorry, didn't mean to highjack your thread. This wasn't even a PADI related issue.
Larry

 

[Walter]

Larry,

Unfortunately, what you've outlined is the norm and not the exception.

I'm glad to see you had the integrity to walk away from that mess.

 

[victoriawtx]

and yet I feel that my experience was outstanding. I had an exceptional instructor that really put me through my paces, challenged me both physically and mentally, and accepted nothing short of complete dedication and hard work on my part.

I think that it is the instructor to whom which blame and criticism should be placed. Not the certifying agency.

I have in the recent past met some highly trained PADI divers/DMs/instructors that I would seriously think twice about diving with.

I think you will see that with all agencies, and like many other fields, including our jobs, there are good apples and there are bad apples. And what can be so annoying, is that many bad apples end up being in higher paying positions (such as our bosses) than the rest of us......LOL

 

[Jut]

thanks for your feedback guys,
After reading some comments i would be inclined to agree that there should be an independent outside body who gives the final pass/fail. the shop i was training with had no problems with putting down their nearest competitor whenever given the chance which i thought rather unprofessional.
I still feel that the main cause of the problem is the "learn to dive in a week" mentaility that is offered. a week intensive cannot possibly allow the student to retain all the information they need to REMEMBER. Large groups may also be a problem, we had 7 students to one instructor whereas in bsac is was 1 on 1 or 1 on 2.
I've decided im going to continue my training with BSAC due to the fact i feel they are churning out safer divers than the agencys in my area and i feel safe with them. i.e. wont be buddied with a guy who cant tell his octopus from his second stage. I may crossover on the PADI courses at a later date though.

 

[DutchDown]

learn to dive in 3 days courses, so I thought I'd offer a couple of observations. I took my course on a holiday in Bali. Because there were few tourists, I was the only student. I felt my instructor was quite thorough. It's unlikely he could have cut corners, if he had been so inclined, because I've been studying on my own for months. As it happens, he worked me very hard and made me perform every skill properly at least twice. Aside from learning the basic skills, the most important lesson I took away was that I am now qualified to BEGIN learning. My OW card is little more than a learner's permit which allows me to refine the skills I've learned and to have an actual basis for continuing the process. As to the BSAC/PADI debate, there is a recent thread on Divernet which I found interesting. The tone is much the same as this thread...namely that the instructor make more of a difference than the agency. It'll be awhile before I'll be self-sufficient enough to really be an effective buddy, but I'll keep practicing.

 

[bwerb]

daylight once bubbled...
Along comes the DIR folks and market an elitist approach while also offering some specially branded equipment required to be identified with this group.
I am not trolling and don't intend to offend all the zealots on this fine board.

Hi Larry...I enjoyed your post...you performed with intergrity, that's what teaching/instructing and mentoring is all about. Far too much of the dive industry (like unfortunately many industries) operates in a vacuum in which integrity ceases to exist. Unfortunately, we are dealing with lives;both of the divers and of the coral etc. which poor diving kills.

I just wanted to clarify for you that DIR does not "require" any "specially branded equipment". Yes, I concur, there are recommendations of specific items which "meet" the overall set-up goals but branding is insignificant.

I'm not exactly sure which "zealots" you were hoping not to offend, but I don't think there is anything at all in your post which is in the slightest offensive...good clarity of thought.

Brian

 

[Lloyd]

I was first certified by NAUI in the 80's. Last year I went to my son's classes(junior PADI), and was dismayed by the differences. In my course we were required to learn and test over a far greater range of knowledge and in far greater detail. We were taught the basics of overhead diving, resue and gas mixing. For the rescue section, we had to perform rescues in the pool and open water.We never knew when the instructer would knock our mask loose or turn our valve off. We were really pushed hard physically and mentally.

My son took the same classes as the adults and I went along to ride shootgun. I actually ended up helping one diver who bolted for the surface while holding his breath and another who could not control his buancy. I also rounded up several strays who were left by there groups when when two schools swam into each other.

I don't know if the difference was my instructor or the programs but it was remarkable. After the PADI course I don't believe you are capable of handling an emergency or unusual situation.

Lloyd

 

[daylight]

Bwerb.
The "Zealots" are prevalent and vocal. they have meticuliously studied the recommended texts and embraced the "leaders" guidance. They are as Uncle Pug refers to "newly minted" and . just like ex-smokers. reformed drunks or newborne christians, they have found "it" and the rest of us need to be enlightened. It is not unusual for folks to react in that fashion.
I'm not denigating DIR. I am commending their marketing strategy. I dive their Halcyon wings and use scout lights as my backups. Not because it is the recommended uniform, but because it is good gear. As CEO of Halycon and Extreme Exposures while being head of GUE, JJ deserves recognition for developing his business enterprise better than most. I am praising his team for capalitizing on a bundled solution. The product and services they are delivering to date are superb. The industry's sales are very slow if not severly depressed. I am very interested in how they are going to respond to the success of their program. A good example is the recent change in the DIRF class and requiring a "certian configuration". The real question is can they keep a high level of quality yet grow to meet the demand. I'm guessing that they will attempt to morp to a higher level of eliteism. Time will tell and the answer is dependent upon Revenue flow.
FWIW, I received a phone call today from the shop owner informing me that the family that was having so much problem during Open Water Cert was not certified and was brought back for remedial work. The owner said that my concerns caused everyone to rethink what was happening. The owner said that they don't want a reputation for turning out unsafe or poorly developed divers.
Larry

 

[Jonathan]

PADI o/w and the BSAC first step are not equivalents! Unfortunately I believe BSAC has been re-congifuring their courses becaause they are losing out to other agencies.

When I started diving I learnt in the UK but it was for a Red Sea hoiliday and I never thought I would take it further than may be once a year holiday diving - for this BSAC was at that time not a practicle option.

I soon realised that I was into this sport but also realised that PADI o/w would not be sufficient for UK diving so took further courses. The phrase horses for courses springs to mind.

Now not all BSAC's are created equal - did you know there was a BSAC Japan? From the little I have seen it has nothing to do with the traditional BSAC other than the name.....

If you have not received an instructor evaluation form from PADI I would contact their QA department - for one the instructor does not sound very professional (dissing other LDS) and for a second it sounds like some corners were defintely cut.

Jonathan