Concerns About Length of Open Water Course

[DevonDiver]

The very same could be said about you. What makes your opinion any more valid?

Pete, you need to read more than a couple of lines from someone's post, before you assume you understand what they're saying.

If you had bothered to read onwards, and not make those assumptions, you would have seen:

Now... I'm not claiming to have experience in "most" destinations, but I've seen enough to know simply that different places have different business/teaching/working cultures. What works in one, does not work in another. There is no universality.

What a minute..., it was right there, all along... in front of your eyes...

I'm sorry if you don't think that ethics are "universal", but they are.

Practicalities... realities, not ethics.

As I said. Until you've tried it, don't make assumptions. I am taking for granted (my own assumption) that you've never worked in S.E. Asia full-time?

 

[Colliam7]

All these conservations are very enlightening, although I dont believe most have addressed my initial question. Should OW courses be allowed to be taught in 2 days?

I suspect most posters understood the question, and declined to answer it directly (I didn't initially comment for the same reason - I didn't want to say 'Yes' or 'No'.) But, since you asked again, my answer to your specific question as worded is 'Yes'. The caveat is, 'Certification should be granted only if performance standards are met.' That statement should technically be unnecessary, by the way.

I don't think PADI necessarily tried to dodge your question, either, rather the response focused on the real issue - meeting the stipulated performance requirements, rather than relying on some arbitrary time frame. This is the classic Structure - Process - Outcome discussion. What has been done by PADI (and probably other agencies) is a shifting of the emphasis from the Structure of training, or the Process of training, to the desired Outcome of training - can the student diver perform the skills that are required. The electronic pages of SB are filled with discussion / debate on whether performance requirements are adequate, whether standards are insufficient, etc. I don't see any useful purpose in opening that can of worms here. Most of us have our opinions and probably aren't going to change them, anyway. Personally, I see standards as minimums that must be met, not maximums that limit what I teach. Standards should be minimums, that are broadly applicable. Otherwise, we might require (as an absurd example) that drysuit use be taught as part of OW because drysuits are different from wetsuits, and a diver could potentially die because of runaway inflation leading to an uncontrolled ascent. I don't think 'raising' that standard would seem reasonable to those who teach year-round in 80+ degree water. For those instructors on SB who have successfully provided OW instruction and certification to some young(er), physically fit, intellectually agile, well-prepared OW students, in only two (long) days, changing a standard to a minimum of 3 calendar days (or more, pick a number) might also seem absurd.

As several posters have said, though, you have to decide for yourself whether you are comfortable with the structure and process of training as conducted by the shop with which you are affiliated. If you aren't (which would appear to be the case, based on your first post) then you should either share that concern with the shop in an effort to change practice, or decline to participate in the training, or offer private instruction yourself, in a structure that you feel comfortable with. Yes, it would be nice for PADI to do it for you - for PADI to change the minimum from two days (which is really driven by the OW dives, not the academics or CW training) to something longer. But, you ultimately have to decide what is best for you. Personally, although my answer, above, was 'Yes', I would not be comfortable with a 2-day group OW course. But, that is me. We teach group OW classes in our shop over 6 calendar days (and charge $375), and I find even that time frame to be a stretch for some students. (We potentially compete with a shop that offers a 3-day class, and charges $259, and have elected to accept the fact that some students will go that route.) The emphasis in virtually every field of endeavor is 'Better, faster, cheaper', and the 'better' part often seems to be interpreted as, 'not conspicuously worse than'.

I can fully understand your expressed concern about the potential for accidents, even deaths, associated with inadequate training. If you are uncomfortable with 2-day classes because of that concern, you shouldn't participate. I think Andy said it very well, 'Unless fatality rates spike, there's just no business argument against shorter, cheaper courses.' And, I really doubt that spike will happen. In fact, OW training appears to have become progressively shorter over the years, and accident rates appear to be stable, or even declining, rather than increasing, not withstanding the anecdotal reports that fill the Accidents and Incidents forum.

Ultimately, if you are uncomfortable with the outcome of training being provided by your shop, not just the structure and process, you also have the option to change agencies. Move to one that mandates a longer minimum time frame for the OW class. Having said that, I am not aware of the (minimum) time limits of agencies beyond PADI, and am curious if NAUI, NASE, SEI, SSI, SDI, etc., have minimums, and what they might be.

 

[The Chairman]

Practicalities... realities, not ethics.

So, you don't believe in ethics. OK then, that changes our discussion dramatically.

As I said. Until you've tried it, don't make assumptions. I am taking for granted (my own assumption) that you've never worked in S.E. Asia full-time?

And you've never worked in Key Largo. How can you claim that they are all that different? After all, it's the same time frame, the same agencies, the same gear, and the same physics. We also have a high concentration of vacationers wanting to learn to dive in as short a time as possible. We have dive ops who want to give these vacationers exactly what they want at the instructor's peril. Now, how does any vacation dive destination differ from that. I've seen lots throughout the Caribbean and they are all similar. Saying that I don't understand is a cop out and an attack. Go ahead and list the differences you ASSUME are there.

Please stop trying to say I don't read the entire post. It's as tiresome as it's not true. Yes, your biased drivel is sometimes painful to read, but I manage to wade through it. Talk about making assumptions and them foisting them on the unsuspecting public as if they were true. I quote what I want to quote to make the points I want to make... just like you. Give the personal attacks a rest.

 

[DevonDiver]

So, you don't believe in ethics. OK then, that changes our discussion dramatically.

Again, Pete, this has nothing to do with what I believe, or how I operate. I am, again, flattered by your interest in me.... but let's keep the debate on track?

I am offering no judgement on the ethics. I am merely expressing a few realities, to which you are immeasurably blinkered, that face dive professionals in certain locations. Those realities do not confirm with the magical little work you operate within the Keys..

And you've never worked in Key Largo. How can you claim that they are all that different?

Ok... here's one for you to answer: DO YOU NEED A WORK PERMIT AND VISA, SUPPLIED BY YOUR EMPLOYER, TO OPERATE IN THE KEYS?

Part 2: Without that VISA, supplied by your employer, would you be obligated to leave that country, your family, your wife...children... would you remain unemployed?

Please...answer that...

Tell me again, how your work in the Keys is identical to any instructor, in any vacation area around the globe.... and how 'going freelance', or quitting an employer, is an easy and ethical option...

I know you're not the sort of person to admit they're wrong. But please, less of your fantasy-land pontificating. Unless you've been there, done it... then you have no clue about the pressures and realities facing scuba professionals employed elsewhere around the globe. You have absolutely no comprehension of how condescending and smug your glib 'advice' sounds.

It doesn't bother me... I've found a way out of the nasty situations described by the OP. I do however, have maximum empathy for him. I am sure there will be some readers on this thread - who are enduring similar, or worse, pressures as described by the OP, who'll be pretty sickened by the attitude you're showing.

Yeah... of course... they should all quit their jobs.... because Pete said it's easy for him... and that they are unethical to do otherwise...

 

[The Chairman]

DO YOU NEED A WORK PERMIT AND VISA, SUPPLIED BY YOUR EMPLOYER, TO OPERATE IN THE KEYS?

You need a green card or a work visa. Temporary Worker Visas I didn't need to use all caps but I did provide you with a link. The same is true in Mexico, in Bonaire, in the Bahamas and almost everywhere throughout the Caribbean. Mexico is probably the hardest place to work in, but there are ways to get around most everything.

Without that VISA, supplied by your employer, would you be obligated to leave that country, your family, your wife...children... would you remain unemployed?

Only as a vacationer.

But please, less of your fantasy-land pontificating.

Again, more personal attacks. You're good at that... just not very good at discussing real issues. So far, not many real differences and at least one of your assumptions debunked. Next?

I just re-read the OP and I don't find anything alluding to him being on a work visa. I don't remember it coming up at anytime during this conversation until now. No, I'm not going back to read the entire discourse. If it's there, please point it out. So, if he's an Australian citizen, what does it matter? Oh wait, it specifically matters to you. Do you have figures showing that most people in most resorts are ex-pats? I doubt it, because they make working as an ex-pat fairly difficult to do. So, in reality, you're the one in fantasy-land pontificating about how their narrow focus applies everywhere. I've got news for you Walter Cronkite: it doesn't. (I've always wanted to use that quote).

 

[emoreira]

If you think that you cannot train students in the time frame defined by your employer (the LDS), you should go away from this LDS and find a new employer (LDS) that has a better instruction concept. If all the LDSs in your area has the same instruction concept, make a crossover, go to a different certification agency that fits better with your training concept.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

SEI requires an absolute minimum of 24 hours, 12 classroom and 12 pool. Preferred is 16 hours in each. We were told again at DEMA that if anyone comes looking for a weekend class to send them to another agency or certify them through one. SEI does not even want to be associated with quickie certs. And all pool and classroom must be completed before any OW dives can be conducted. We also have some perfomance and skills requirements that make it nearly impossible to even do a two weekend cert. Unless the student is really exceptional but even then it would mean 16 hour days preceding this. And that is just asking for someone to get hurt.

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk 2

 

[TMHeimer]

I have read all the posts. I agree that a competent OW graduate is obviously the goal, regardless of time allotted. Having said that, I offer my limited view regarding my own experience taking OW and the half dozen classes I've DMd. 2 days seems an awful stretch. The 6 week night course plus checkout dives was good for me. The 2 weekends courses I DM SEEM to be what the absolute minimum should be, if that. More students than not seem to get it OK, especially now with e learning. Some (as probably would've been the case with me) find it to be a lot of pool work in 2 days--plus classroom in the old days (we do e learning only now for the weekend courses). I haven't really seen any (perhaps none) that seemed to get it so quickly that they would be bored and better off with a 2 total day course. It would SEEM to me that to get everything done there an instructor would have to be Houdini.

 

[markmud]

If you think that you cannot train students in the time frame defined by your employer (the LDS), you should go away from this LDS and find a new employer (LDS) that has a better instruction concept. If all the LDSs in your area has the same instruction concept, make a crossover, go to a different certification agency that fits better with your training concept.

Hello Austrooper (OP):

I agree with emoreira.

Qualification:
I am not an instructor nor a dive professional. What hair I have left is gray and my once incredible eye sight is going away. My post is about human nature and not about the specifics of dive training. "Old and cunning beats young and agile most every time."

My point is:
My cert cards have my instructor's name and registration number on them. Had I suffered an accident right after being certified, all involved in my demise's investigation would have performed a post mortem on the training protocols used by my instructor. Did he/she follow, in your case, PADI guidelines?

I guarantee you that my instructor's LDS would have been screaming from the roof tops about how their instructor should have followed PADI training guidelines. Guaranteed!

The LDS would have shoved this statement down my instructor's proverbial throat:

"The PADI Open Water Diver course teaches student divers the foundational knowledge and skills they need to dive with a buddy, independent of supervision. Your primary objective is to put safety first — the safety of your student divers, staff and your own safety in the planning, organization and conduct of the course."
PADI Guide to Teaching 2014

My instructor would have been screwed.

OP, you need to perform a cost-to-benefit analysis of your situation. I don't mean a cost-to-benefit analysis based on economics, but on moral/ethical standards. And, most importantly, how is your life going to be affected if one of your students is maimed or killed soon after completing your quicky cert class. A quicky cert class that you knew was not ethical.

As I recall, my instructor did not immediately certify one student in my class because the student was not meeting the standards. My instructor made arrangements with the student to perform some remedial training with the student until the student met the standards.

Just my thoughts.

markm

 

[Colliam7]

SEI requires an absolute minimum of 24 hours, 12 classroom and 12 pool. Preferred is 16 hours in each.

Jim, thanks for the detail. So, SEI specifies contact hours, but doesn't stipulate how many days? I presume that would mean that a particular instructor could conduct classroom and pool over two long days if s/he chose to do so (not suggesting anyone would, or that it is a good idea, just making sure I understand the limits).

For the Open Water component, are there any additional time-associated limitations? For example, do the dives have to be conducted over a minimum number of days?

We also have some perfomance and skills requirements that make it nearly impossible to even do a two weekend cert.

IOW, one weekend for academics and pool, and one weekend for OW is probably not practical in the SEI system? Again, just making sure I understand.

Unless the student is really exceptional but even then it would mean 16 hour days preceding this. And that is just asking for someone to get hurt.

And, that is my general reservation about ever participating in such a short course. I suspect it is part of the OP's concern as well. There is a lot to do, students (and instructors) can get pretty tired (physically and mentally), and fatigue can contribute to mistakes. But, that view probably also reflects my 'chronological gifted-ness'. Personally, I don't know that the optimal solution is to stipulate X number of days. Rather, outline the performance requirements as the desired outcome, and encourage / require use of good instructor judgement.

It would be great to get some input from SB instructors affiliated with other agencies as well. Pete, if / when you finish your 'discussion' with Andy, perhaps you could share some NASE details?