Concerned with questions @ VIP Certification... Experts please

[TohoTim]

I was asked a question today that I need a definitive answer on with documentation to support, Please!

A friend picked up a tank today from his LDS that was sent out for Hydro and VIP done 'in-house'. The tank was then filled with air and then taken home. A regulator was put on the tank and the tank valve was opened. Air immediately began leaking from the tank valve under handle/knob. It was discovered that the valve nut retaining the teflon washer was loose. Once tightened, it worked fine. The shop claims it wasn't like that when the filled the tank...and my friend only attached the stage 1 and opened the valve.

1) So how does this happen and how did the shop fill it without recognizing it? It leaked like a sieve.
2) Should the person doing the VIP remove the old stickers and NITROX labels since the tank was converted to air?
3) Should the VIP include checking o-rings on the tank valve?
3) Can someone that is NOT 'certified' to do VIPs do them under ANY circumstances? ie. under someone else's 'certification'? - even when the 'certification' holder is not on the premises...

Many thanks for your answers - again please point me to the documentation also.

Best fishes,

Tim

 

[tbone1004]

remember for the documentation, it all depends on who they are vipping for. VIP is not required by the DoT, it is only an industry recommendation that has been adopted by most all fill stations. The VIP done at hydro is very thorough but they don't care about the valve, only the tank. VIP is also only about the tank, not the valve unless they are partial pressure filling, then the valve has to be O2 cleaned. You can search the DoT VIP procedures for hydro but they don't have anything to do with the questions you asked, and the VIP documentation should be made available at the shop that did the VIP, but it also depends on which company they were vipping under, i.e. PSI or TDI

1. It is possible that the tank monkey over tightened the valve and that caused the break, these leaks happen randomly, though your friend should have paid to have the valve rebuilt as that is supposed to be done at hydro per most valve manufacturers *some have a shorter service interval but I don't know of any that don't recommend full rebuild while the tank is apart for hydro*.... Afterall the regulator can't function if it isn't being fed air.... These failures are common with valves that have not been maintained properly and it is not up to the person doing hydro or VIP to initiate this maintenance. It is up to the owner of the valves to have them properly serviced at a regular interval.

2. sort of. The stickers are all required to be removed for VIP regardless of what is going back in it. Air is technically nitrox, just normoxic nitrox. I personally think nitrox labels are idiotic and only increase your risk of having problems with VIP down the road. All stickers should be removed and only a current VIP sticker and the tank analysis should be on the tank. If the nitrox label was put back on, that is up to the diver and the fill stations that he uses. In technical diving it is exceedingly rare to see nitrox labels on tanks and typically is only done if a recreational shop mandates it for nitrox fills. The only thing we have on our tanks are vip stickers, analysis labels, and MOD/initials for any bottles that will be dropped.

3. no, this is not part of the VIP process. The valve is not touched during a VIP process as it is an inspection of the tank. The neck o-ring needs to be inspected and replaced if damaged since it is exposed during VIP, but the valve parts themselves are not touched as part of any VIP or Hydro procedure.

4. not if it is a certified vip, i.e. through PSI-PCI or TDI. When you do that, the sticker includes your inspector number for traceability. If you are just sticking a random shop vip label on, anyone can do it because again, VIP is only an industry paradigm not a legal requirement. If the sticker is not from a certified inspector as mentioned above, dive shops are not required to acknowledge that sticker.

 

[guruboy]

3) Check your VIP sticker. Some stickers say both "tank and valve" are inspected during VIP. However, even if the sticker also mentions the valve, the valve usually is not touched besides removal/replace.

4) Technically anyone can do a VIP. Again, check your VIP sticker. If it specifies a certification/ID number, then it should be the person that ID number belongs to, who was trained by some agency, that inspected the tank.


However, this doesn't sound like a major issue. Maybe the nut just came loose over time. I would only be concerned if you have reason to believe that this is a steel tank with a risk of interior rust.

 

[2airishuman]

1) So how does this happen

Well, if they disassembled the valve, they probably forgot to torque it. That shouldn't happen, but nonetheless, it's a common mistake when assembling anything.

If they didn't disassemble the valve, it was probably that way when you gave it to them, and presumably, was left in that condition by the former owner.

and how did the shop fill it without recognizing it? It leaked like a sieve.

I would guess that the compressor was running and drowned out the noise of the leak.

2) Should the person doing the VIP remove the old stickers and NITROX labels since the tank was converted to air?

Yes, but they usually don't, because it's time consuming and not much fun.

3) Should the VIP include checking o-rings on the tank valve?

Typically a VIP does not include valve service.

It's a good idea to service the valve every five years, and so it's usually done at hydro time. Most shops bill separately for this, and don't do it unless you ask.

3) Can someone that is NOT 'certified' to do VIPs do them under ANY circumstances? ie. under someone else's 'certification'? - even when the 'certification' holder is not on the premises...

Taking the replies upthread one step further, anyone can do VIPs. You can buy a set of stickers on ebay and various other places. Not all fill stations recognize all stickers. There aren't any laws that say what you can or cannot do with the stickers. I suppose that if the stickers say PSI or PADI on them that those organizations might have some rules on how they are used, which may or may not be enforceable in the real world.

 

[TohoTim]

Thank you ALL for the education here - very helpful and informative. I can share all of this information.
I had him take a picture of the VIP label and it indeed states: "Visually inspected to PSI/PCI, OSHA and CGA Standards" Inspector # -6--4

So if it is 1 inspector per #, and the number is assigned to someone who has successfully completed specific course work/training, it is logical to me that someone without their own inspector # may be violating the certifier's standards. I'll have to do some more research on each of these inspection authorities i guess.

What is kind of funny/scary to me is that when questioned specifically about certification, the individual claims it is "absolutely allowable" to use another's license "as long as the license holder trained you to do it" The other thing that was stated was "I have done these inspections for many years while I worked at (xyz world famous aquarium resort) and they have the highest safety standards anywhere"....they also have a problem with alligators

Last thing... So, the question was posed to this individual: If someone with 'many years' of SCUBA experience, who was trained by a 'certified' diver', but they did not have their own 'certification number' wanted some tanks filled - Would the shop do it? - answer, "No, not certified"

 

[SanDiegoSidemount]

So if it is 1 inspector per #, and the number is assigned to someone who has successfully completed specific course work/training, it is logical to me that someone without their own inspector # may be violating the certifier's standards. I'll have to do some more research on each of these inspection authorities i guess.

Inspector numbers, inspector certification and/or supervision by a certified inspector are NOT required for visuals, only hydros. The DOT standards for visual inspections are pretty lax, as others have pointed out. They pass the buck to the Compressed Gas Association C-6.x pamphlets on all the visual inspection standards. These simply specify acceptable limits for pits, scratches, corrosion, bows/bulges and thread damage on the tank itself.

Any inspection a shop does above and beyond these simple checks is because they are a good dive shop, not because they are required to. There is no requirement to inspect the valve at all, but a reputable dive shop will do a full valve leak check & inspection. If the valve has issues, they should ask you if you would like it to be rebuilt. They should take care of the old labels. They should replace the o-ring. They should ask if you want a full O2 cleaning, and perform it upon your request. But there's nothing that requires them to do any of this.

Any shop flunky can slap a VIP sticker on a tank, as long as they checked all the items required by the CGA C-6.x pamphlets and keep a record of the serial number and inspection results.

So this sounds more like a consumer issue than a DOT regulatory or legal issue. Did you get the level of inspection that was advertised and/or promised? If not, your recourse is really just BBB and/or small claims court. (And this is a very small claim money-wise.)

 

[boulderjohn]

The possibilities involved in tank inspections can range anywhere from total honesty to total scam.

• If I inspect your tank, I will put a PSI sticker on it with my inspector number. That tells you that I have been trained to do the work by PSI, and you will have to trust that I did that inspection according to my training.
• If your inspection sticker does not identify a specific inspection agency and is instead a shop sticker or a generic sticker with no identification, then you have no idea what standards were used or if the person who did the inspection had any training whatsoever. A few years ago a tank that had been taken to a shop to be inspected, oxygen cleaned, and filled later blew up in the customer's garage. A glance at a fragment of the tank neck showed a heavy dose of silicone--a definite no-no for oxygen service. A subsequent investigation showed that the employee who did the work had no training whatsoever in either oxygen cleaning or tank inspection.

 

[tbone1004]

if it is a PSI sticker and it uses a number, and the person that did that inspection is not the person that that number is assigned to, PSI/PCI will have a cow and you need to report that to them.

and to follow up with what John said, said person lost his arm and the house... Search for Rick Allen and you'll find a pretty nasty situation....

 

[TohoTim]

WOW...that is Awful! Thank you again for educating me... At the end of the day, I guess its like everything else in life -> If you've seen one dive shop, you've seen one dive shop. ONLY as good as the person's character doing the job.

MANY THANKS!

 

[guruboy]

What is kind of funny/scary to me is that when questioned specifically about certification, the individual claims it is "absolutely allowable" to use another's license "as long as the license holder trained you to do it" The other thing that was stated was "I have done these inspections for many years while I worked at (xyz world famous aquarium resort) and they have the highest safety standards anywhere"....they also have a problem with alligators

No, it is not allowed. That person is talking out of his/her ass.

If a person (I will use Bob) was trained by an agency (PSI), Bob will receive an identifying number. It is for Bob specifically.

Unless Bob is a VIP instructor, no one trained by Bob can claim to be certified by PSI, much less use Bob's PSI number.

If Bob is a VIP instructor, each person trained by Bob would receive a unique number. They would not need to use Bob's.