Computers & DIR

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Hey Nemrod, I'll be sure to keep that in mind when I'm on my deco stops tomorrow that I planned using a methodology that doesn't exist. :wink: :D

Oh, and my schedule (for 25 mins at 160 ft), that I used no computers at all to create, came out 2 minutes different than Vplanner at +1. My plan had 2 extra minutes of deco.
 
onfloat:
I believe it is written down. It's at the back of the cave in the in the arc of the covenant, written on a "golden" table. You can only get there by going downtown, not on a toy scooter and not by lookin' slick.:D

Complete the "ritual" first, one must...hmmmm
Before going downtown. Yes....
See the obvious you will, hmmm...after the "ritual."
Simple are relationships that you seek...hmmm
Downtown, no need for you to go. Yes....

Harness the force young jedi...harness the force!!! :)

Sincerely,
H2
 
bridgediver:
I'll make you a deal. If you can make a post on here that explains everything there is to know about diving tables (rep dives, altitude, RNT/TNT etc) so that a newbie can understand and SAFELY apply them and go diving then maybe I'll explain this theroy for you.
Since I learned this much on my own prior to OW, I could probably do this much (except for altitude - I'd need to figure that out first). Tables are not really that difficult to figure out.
 
m7scuba:
Since I learned this much on my own prior to OW, I could probably do this much (except for altitude - I'd need to figure that out first). Tables are not really that difficult to figure out.

The dir theroy is not difficult either (in fact its probably easier to figure out than standard tables). My point is a sarcastic one and not directed at you, sorry.

Incidently, if you learned all of this on your own why did you do an OW? This is essentially what the other guy is looking for.
 
bridgediver:
The dir theroy is not difficult either (in fact its probably easier to figure out than standard tables). My point is a sarcastic one and not directed at you, sorry.

Incidently, if you learned all of this on your own why did you do an OW? This is essentially what the other guy is looking for.
No offense taken. I only learned the table portion on my own. My SSI training filled in the rest of the practical knowledge (which I had learned some from this board). I'm a math guy, so the table portion was easy - matter of fact all of the book stuff was.

I was thinking last night about this thread and had a thought (which may be off), but anyway...
Would it be accurate to say that DIR divers treat every dive as a deco dive (the method that is used)? Does that introduce reluctance to put the whole procedure into a terse yet complete description? I'm thinking this because of some of what I read on the WKPP site about deco. Some points were - do the shallow dive first, after a relatively short SI you can do another dive and ignore RNT as long as it is deeper than (or equal to) the first (although you can't ignore the CNS toxicity clock). I'm also thinking that this makes sense because the dives are beyond what tables would allow and even beyond what some computers would be happy with (at least I've seen that claimed). This would seem to push the envelope of purely recreational dives.

I'm still working on my air consumption, so my first dive is always limited by gas. I use a computer and on repetitive dives it does give a noticeable advantage over table use. If I dove tables, my second dive would be limited by BT but with the computer it is limited by gas. I will do some additional research (some of the mentioned boards evidently contain the information that the original poster desired). Eventually I do intend on getting into deco, but after some more experience and proper training. I may even end up in a DIR-f class at some point.
 
m7scuba:
Would it be accurate to say that DIR divers treat every dive as a deco dive.
Every dive is a deco dive. This is why a slow ascent rate is so important on every dive, recreational or not.

This is just my own personal opinion here: I think the reluctance to post stuff up has to do with folks looking for absolutes. There are no absolutes, just rules of thumb. You need to find the rule of thumb that works best for you. What I do may not be what works best for you, and vice versa. It's not a secret, at least for recreational dives. I believe a couple people have even posted up the answer already, but I'll post up my own personal rule of thumb for computerless rec diving:

Average depth + time = 120
Time shallow makes up for time deep
Spend lots of time shallow at the end of the dive
Never run out of breathable gas :05:

DISCLAIMER: Don't dive like I do, you may die as a result. Take the class and learn it right. I am NOT all that, nor do I think I am. Observe all posted speed limits. Don't drink and drive. Your mileage may vary.

Jimmie
 
What works for me:

70 and 80 feet air NDLs add up to 110, and you lose 5 minutes every 10 feet beyond there, and 60 is 55:

60 - 55
70 - 40
80 - 30
90 - 25
100 - 20
110 - 15
120 - 10
130 - 5

For EAN32, use depth - 20.

For the deep portion of the dive, if its a reverse profile, take the max depth. If its not, then use avg depth. For multilevel diving with an 80-120 portion of the dive followed by a 60 foot level, take twice the time deep and add to the time at 60 and apply to the 60 fsw table value (only really much of an issue with air).

Once you start talking about air at <=50 fsw or nitrox at <=70 fsw I need to get out because I get cold.

Ideally I do 1 min 'stops' all the way up. Minmum is doing 1 mins from 1/2 max depth. For repetetive diving extend the shallow stops to include at least 2-2-2 to the surface. Typically do more like 1-1-1-3-3 and spend some time working on trim, hovering, clipping and unclipping and whatnot shallow. For real underwear soiling emergencies, skip the deep stops and do 1-1-1 and get out, extend 10 fsw stop if there's time. Add more time shallow arbitrarily for cutting it close to the NDLs and/or repetetive diving.

Do at least an hour for an SI, longer if repetetive diving (n>=3) and/or extend shallow stops.

And some bright scholar will probably find some edge case where this doesn't work at all, so don't do that. The wider the discrepancies from a square profile, the more none of it applies.

And usually it is much simpler than this. The dive plan is usually "lets go down to 100 fsw for 30 mins on EAN32" and then you adjust from there based on how much you overshoot or undershoot it, which is usually +/- 10 fsw. And usually on a dive like that I'll scoot up from 90/100/110 fsw up to 50/60 fsw or shallower which will effectively give an NDL longer than I care to do a dive (on EAN32) -- the faster compartments which had been your controlling compartments have their clock stopped at that depth and the compartments you're loading are pretty slow.

I'm also very comfortable with managing a gas plan in addition to this, and drill a lot on solving problems at depth, so I'm comfortable with the idea that I may have an actual, although small, decompression obligation per tables and when there's doubt I extend the 10-20 fsw time. I also know, on the fly, how much psi to add to my rock bottom to deco me and buddy at 10-20 fsw very conservatively.

I've also run my computer in parallel with my brain in trying to figure out a lot of this, and I get very good agreement.. I've pushed a minute or two into deco on a couple of occasions per the computer, which all cleared before I even ascended above 40 fsw, and the most I've gone over has been 5 mins of obligation (and that's on a conservative suunto computer). Plus, I frequently forget to set my computer to EAN32, and it goes 10-15 mins or so into deco and I get in good practice at dealing with simulated deco obligations...
 
Lamont, thank you for the absolutely most pragmatic and useful post on the subject that I have read to date on Scubaboard. This one got printed.
 
lamont:
For EAN32, use depth - 20.

JasonB pointed out that this was ambigous, what I'm talking about is EAD, not NDL.

Also, GUE teaches this as EAD = 20% of depth (for EAN32), but I haven't run into an opportunity to use 60 fsw EAN32 = 50 fsw air because I'm usually done long before the NDL at those depths, so just lopping off 20 fsw works for the regime that I care about.

Also, note that while being extrapolated from GUE practices, just about nothing up there was taught to me in any GUE course. Even the tables are just NAUI/PADI tables with the deep bit a little more conservative and easier for me to remember (and part of the table that I never use anyway).
 
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