Complete 1st stage failure (scubapro MK5)

[Greg Barlow]

The fact that they are some of Scubapro oldest regulators should be less important than the fact that they are probably one of the most common regulators still in service. I believe the Mk-5/ R109 is one of only two vintage single hose regulators that has a huge following. The other one being the Conshelf.

I also should have mentioned that some of the vintage second stage parts were interchangeable from one brand to another. For example, many of the second stage poppet seats were of the same dimensions and durometer.

Greg Barlow

 

[Luis H]

Luis,

The original Voit/Swimaster MR12 regs are able to be "mostly" serviced using modern day parts. In fact, I have even improved many of them by using silicone second stage diaphragms.

Mares HP poppets, first stage diaphragms, second stage O-rings, MR12 III exhaust valves,and MR12 III second stage poppet seats are all usable in the original MR12 regs.

My favorite vintage single hose reg is the Voit Viking I example of the MR12.

Heck, the MR12 even has the distinction of being the first single hose regulator approved for use by the US Navy. As you probably know, the name MR12 stands for Military Regulator 1 hose, 2 stages.

Greg Barlow

Hi Greg

When I first wrote that post last night, I was going to mention the Voit MR-12 since it falls under: one of many divers “all time favorites” (I know you are in that group). But, since I mention “one of the most common regulators still in service” I didn’t think it really belong there. I may be wrong, but the number of users I believe is relatively small (as compared to a MK-5 or Conshelf).

I have one and considered it one of the great single hose regulators (with the MK-5/ R109, the Conshelf, and the Poseidon Cyklon 300), but for reasons unknown to me I don’t believe it was ever that popular.


In Puerto Rico in the 70’s we were probably the closest to being a Voit dealer. We never actually sold any Voit/ Swimaster regulators. We sold plenty of their spear-guns (the best IMHO), and other equipment.

Now the name Voit/ Swimaster has basically disappeared. Most people are probably not even aware of their relationship with Mares. Actually I don’t even know many of the details of the merger, etc.

I strongly respect and admire Mares for making a metal second stage in today’s market, but I hate to admit that I am somewhat prejudice due to the experience we had getting parts for their old regulators (mostly in the 70’s). In any case, I have enough to play with between vintage (and some modern) US Divers, Scubapro, and Poseidon.

 

[rmannix]

Luis,

The original Voit/Swimaster MR12 regs are able to be "mostly" serviced using modern day parts. In fact, I have even improved many of them by using silicone second stage diaphragms.

Mares HP poppets, first stage diaphragms, second stage O-rings, MR12 III exhaust valves,and MR12 III second stage poppet seats are all usable in the original MR12 regs.

My favorite vintage single hose reg is the Voit Viking I example of the MR12.

Heck, the MR12 even has the distinction of being the first single hose regulator approved for use by the US Navy. As you probably know, the name MR12 stands for Military Regulator 1 hose, 2 stages.

Greg Barlow

I had an AMF Swimaster MR12 I bought new in 1973.
Currently I have 2 that I bought and rebuilt, an AMF and a Voit. The Voit is in great shape, the AMF is in great shape but the black is long worn off the purge button.

Where did you get silicone 2nd stage diaphragms to fit? I'd like to get my hands on 2

 

[ams511]

Hi Greg
Now the name Voit/ Swimaster has basically disappeared. Most people are probably not even aware of their relationship with Mares. Actually I don’t even know many of the details of the merger, etc.

AMF (American Machine and Foundry) was one of big conglomerates of the 60's and 70's. They purchased many different business over time such as Mares and Harley-Davidson. They fell on tough times financially and was purchased in the mid-80's and then the various business units were sold off. Today, I think the AMF name is only used for bowling-related items.

 

[Greg Barlow]

I had an AMF Swimaster MR12 I bought new in 1973.
Currently I have 2 that I bought and rebuilt, an AMF and a Voit. The Voit is in great shape, the AMF is in great shape but the black is long worn off the purge button.

Where did you get silicone 2nd stage diaphragms to fit? I'd like to get my hands on 2

I purchased a number of the black silicone Mares MR12 III versions about eight months ago. I sold them all in a very short period of time at a vintage diving event. My efforts at obtaining more of them have not been fruitful. I still have two that I am keeping for my own use.

Greg

 

[Greg Barlow]

AMF (American Machine and Foundry) was one of big conglomerates of the 60's and 70's. They purchased many different business over time such as Mares and Harley-Davidson. They fell on tough times financially and was purchased in the mid-80's and then the various business units were sold off. Today, I think the AMF name is only used for bowling-related items.

Yeah, I still discuss the AMF purchase of Harley Davidson with other biker friends. Many Harley riders tell stories about how AMF "ruined" Harley. What they don't want to remember is that Harley was getting ready to go into bankruptcy court when AMF bailed them out. AMF did fail to instill proper quality control, but Harley had already put themselves way behind the competition. AMF did start development of the Evolution engine, and then the company was sold. If it weren't for the 80s interest in "retro styled" bikes Harley would have gone the way of the dinosaurs.

AMF did purchase Mares while they were still manufacturing dive gear under the Voit and Swimaster labels. In fact, the MR12 II second stage was actually designed in Italy. It was the first reg to use the by-pass venturi tube. Many of the Voit/Swimaster masks and snorkels from the mid 70s and up were actually rebadged Mares models. The HTM conglomerate that owns Mares and Head is actually a direct descendant of the AMF label.

Greg Barlow

 

[Greg Barlow]

Hi Greg

When I first wrote that post last night, I was going to mention the Voit MR-12 since it falls under: one of many divers “all time favorites” (I know you are in that group). But, since I mention “one of the most common regulators still in service” I didn’t think it really belong there. I may be wrong, but the number of users I believe is relatively small (as compared to a MK-5 or Conshelf).

Luis,

I believe that the MR12 was one of the strongest sellers in the continental USA during the 1970s. One problem that it had was its high price. It was considered to be a premium regulator, and had a matching price tag. I actually wanted to buy one in 1977, but was able to purchase a new US Divers Calypso VI at considerably less. When you see the large number of them that show up on eBay, that is a testament to their popularity. I do agree though, that the MK-5 and Conshelf models are true classics. Of course, the Poseidons are almost in a class by themselves. I don't believe that any diver from our era can straight faced deny that. It provided WOB standards that were at least a decade ahead of the other products on the market.

I strongly respect and admire Mares for making a metal second stage in today’s market, but I hate to admit that I am somewhat prejudice due to the experience we had getting parts for their old regulators (mostly in the 70’s). In any case, I have enough to play with between vintage (and some modern) US Divers, Scubapro, and Poseidon.

Yeah, I've been diving in cold water (50 degrees F and lower) for more than 32 years, and don't recall ever seeing a metal second stage free flowing from icing. A metal second stage is probably at least five times more expensive to produce than the synthetic versions, but its heat sink capabilities are far superior.

I even have our mutual friend, Rob S. collecting the MR12. Heaven forbid.....It only has one hose!!!

Greg Barlow

 

[DA Aquamaster]

IMHO and that of many other, the R109 (converted or not to a balanced adjustable) is one of the best second stages ever made. For Scubapro to abandon it, even partially is a total shame. I have even considering re-chroming some of the worst looking 109 I have bought on eBay. I have converted to balanced adjustable my best five R109.

Scubapro has a great name, but I would think that their image would only benefit by advertising that one of their oldest regulators is still one of many divers “all time favorites”. The “all time favorite” status will quickly disappear if they don’t fully support it.

They started to offer me some kind of a replacement deal for one of my MK-5. IMO, they should be offering a replacement to some of the less successful, more recent, short lived regulators and continue to support one of their most successful regulators ever.

IMO, age is less important than a good sound, great performer, simple, and robust design.

The Mk 5 and Mk 10 when combined with the R109 Adjustable, R156 Balanced Adjustable, or D300/D350/D400 were exceptional regulators that deliver inhalation performance equal to anything currently produced. They were also rock solid and designed to last literally decades.

Sp used to be THE company you looked to for equipment that you absolutlely needed to work in demanding conditions. SP equipment cost more - often a lot more - but people paid more because of the quality. Lately, SP has compromised it's identity by playing musical model numbers and making frequent piddly changes that have for the most part been designed to create distinct marketing categories designed to sell divers entery level, intermediate and advanced regulators rather than to improve an existing design.

The quality is frankly not all that much better than Aqualung or Apeks now that everyone sells the same craptastic plastic cased second stages. And I susepct the frequent design and styling changes are intended to get SP customers to upgrade their older (meaning more than a few years old) models and that the continued loyalty of cutomers to their 20 plus year old Mk 5's and Mk 10's probably drives them nuts.

The thing is, the quality of the Mk 5, Mk 10, R109 and D400 and the reputation and loyalty that they produced are what made SP the best in the business. Sadly, they seem intent on screwing that up and are losing sight of the fact that quality is one of the best ways to add a great deal of value for very little cost - a lesson that took american automakers 30 years to learn and cost them most of their market share before they learned it. It really sucks to see SP making the mistake of letting the marketing department drive the company rather than the engineering department.

 

[Greg Barlow]

Valid points, DA. In my opinion, the elimination of the metal air barrel in their second stage was a huge blunder. An all metal second stage is the most resistant to ice formation, but a metal air barrel runs a close second. The only reason why ScubaPro went to a plastic air barrel is the almighty dollar.

Greg Barlow

 

[redacted]

Well, I finally got around to checking all my Mk5s and I'm 3 for 3 brass turret bolts. They all look to be in good shape so I retorqued them to 35 in-lb and plan to keep diving them. After all, it's not like they are so dangerous as to warrent a recall. And its not like Scubapro has not acknowledged the problem with the associated liability that would incur. But if anyone decides to make a production run of SS bolts, I'd go for a few.