Community-based Instructor Evaluation?

[lundysd]

With the death of a young diver just minutes away from my regular dive site, due in no small part to a careless isntructor (see the accidents and incidents forum), I have been trying to come up with a way to inform potential divers about the good, bad, and most importantly unsafe instructors in their area.

I realize that 99% of all instructors out there range from competent to excellent, but it's the other 1% that worries me. These instructors are responsible for training a multitude of divers, and one bad apple can really ruin a lot of students.

It's very difficult for most agencies to personally oversee individual instructors on a regular basis, and so I think doing it within the local dive community informally is a more practical solution. Is this a good or bad idea? How would you suggest implementing such a system? Creative ideas welcome here....

Please realize that this thread has been started for the sake of new divers and their safety -- I'm merely trying to see if we can make our sport safer in any reasonable way. Thanks for the input

 

[Wilson]

That's a tough one, brother! I know a Instructor or two that I won't DM for because they scare the shamrocks out of me. It's has been amazing to me how "word on the street" gets around about these guys. Maybe, like the Better Business Bureau, there can be a complaint tally of sorts. There are some divers who will gripe no matter what, but I think if you see a high amount of concern directed at a particular Instructor (or DM or other dive professional), then that info could be directed back to the LDS. If they choose to ignore it, then that in itself could be a concern. Just my .02

 

[Walter]

I realize that 99% of all instructors out there range from competent to excellent.....

What leads you to be so optimistic? Most instructors really are not very good. There are some excellent instructors, but they are hard to find in the crowd.

 

[brutus_scuba]

There are two problelms I forsee. First within the dive community I already know who the good and bad instructors are in my area, it would have been informing me before I took the OW (even though I did get a great instructor) that would have been more important, but that is alsmost impossible to implement.

Secondly I thnk you would have to be thinking in a very ideal manner if you actually believe that this could be implimented without any person vandettas or biases coming out in a final system. Good Instructors may get bad wraps b/c they were tough on their client and so fourth, and my knowledge of bad instructors in my area are from stories you here. Without taking a class from every instructor in the area I can't realistically give a fair unbiased comparison.

EDIT AFTER READING ADDICDENT FORUM: After reading a thread related to the incident that triggered this thread I can only say this. I understand your frustration with that anyone who would allow that level of stupiditity, and I think that it would be in the best interest of the dive community if that instructor never dove again, never had a dive buddy again, and never talked to anyone about diving again. That being said I think the TOS for scubaboard is still appropriate, but that I think you should go after this instructor with his certifyign agency, and the law should go after him for something. I would support you in any effort you took in that reguard. The accident was foolish without an instructor but with an instructor it was just down right mind boggling.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

So putting together a lynch mob of amatuer divers is a good idea? Even if it were other professionals on the LM it usually turns into a popularity contest.

It's the agencies or dive shops responsibilty. Word of mouth should take care of most of them.

But only yesterday a new user wanted the names of some fast and cheap instructors in his area.

 

[Peter Guy]

Whether it is physicians, lawyers or Scuba instructors, there is a real problem with coming up with a scheme to "regulate" the "professionalism" of those doing it.

The first problem is defining what is a "professional" (or "good") Scuba Instructor. What IS the "minimal" skill level (and that is what we have to define unfortunately)? And isn't that why NAUI and PADI were originally created -- to define the minimal acceptable level of competence?

No good solutions I'm afraid.

 

[lundysd]

I'm not looking to have amateur divers provide the evaluation -- I'm thinking the more seasoned veterans (but NOT instructors themselves) should somehow interact with instructors and then provide feedback only in the case of EXTREME neglect, as was the case recently in Puget Sound.

The problem with word of mouth is that an average Joe off the streets will have none whatsoever before choosing an OW class.... Once they get trapped by a bad instructor, they stand a good chance of staying with him and getting stuck with inadequate skills and knowledge (like PLANNING a bounce dive to 200ft on an AL80 in 2' viz )

this situation is more of a hypothetical, given that I don't see it logistically or legally working out, but I think it's a valid topic of discussion and an idea that should at least be explored

 

[lundysd]

Peter,

I wholeheartedly agree -- at least with physicians it's a nightmare (though it is slowly improving). It's also very similar to diving -- you are entrusting your life to an "expert" without any real knowledge of his expertise in most cases. The problem is that there's no way to really disseminate that information to where an average Joe OW student could access it easily.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Veteren non professionals have still not be trained to instruct. They don't know what it takes to be a professional. I might find some value in their opinions but not much. Again, it's popularity.

Reports breaches of standards to the certifying agency instead of talking about things online. Tell students who complain about things to report.

On the surface the kid who was killed while in the same group as an instructor going way outside of recreational diving standards may very well appear that this instructor is horrible and needs to be shot. That may be true but.....

What if these guys were going anyway. What if the instructor went along only after begging the group not to do it. Should he have allowed the group to go without a professional? I have no idea.

I recall seeing an instructor trying to talk a young lady into not jumping off of a bridge that was more than 50 feet above the water. He even went up on the bridge and worked on her until she finally jumped. She broke her back. Now for those who weren't close to them they may have felt that he was encouraging her to jump, the opposite is true.

At the last moment when she stepped over the rail he offered some sound advice on how to land after he saw her determination.

Sure it isn't diving but I think you get the point I'm making.

There are crappy instructors, lawyers, cops, teachers, truck drivers. It's a part of life. Eventually it works out, it works out faster if people use the channels that are available to them instead of trying to confuse things even further.

 

[lundysd]

I agree that most non-instructors don't know the S&P very well for any given agency, but they sure can tell if an instructor is doing something obviously unsafe, like doing a certification dive to 100ft for example.

FYI -- the instructor in question was also present during a 200ft bounce dive 3 years ago, with a diver incident occurring then as well.....From what I've heard, the instructor was very much a part of the planning and execution of both dives, from start to finish.