Class Prerequisites

[mcohen1021]

I will try to be brief in my questions...

1. Can somebody tell me approximately when the depth limit was reduced from 140 to 130 feet? It was obviously after 89 or 90, but I clearly remember the depth limit being 140 when I went through my basic Open Water

2. Can somebody please tell me when basic Open Water went a limit of 60 feet? This has obviously changed as well, does anybody know when/why? My guess is because PADI wanted to sell more classes but that's just my personal opinion.

3. I'm trying to recall whether there was any pre requisite number of Dives in order to take an advanced Open Water class... I thought that there was a 50 or 60 dive prerequisite, am I missing something here?

I'm not knocking anybody for taking classes, but doesn't it seem like a little bit of false advertising for somebody with only 10 dIves to have an advanced Open Water card? If I feel like gives a false sense of security to dive operators and fellow drivers on a boat...

Please don't flame me for feeling this way, I'm only asking because safety is of the utmost concern for everybody involved

Thanks

MC

 

[Bob DBF]

Welcome to the club.

1. I was trained for No Decompression Limits, which is 190', somewhere along the way between then and now the agreed upon limit is now 130.

2. The "recommended" OW limit is 60', depending on the dive op and their insurance company a diver may be restricted to that limit.

3. Advanced is not advanced, it is only 5 training dives under instruction and, depending on the instructor, only gives you a card that a dive op and their insurance company will let you dive deeper than 60'.

Safety is relative.


Bob

 

[mcohen1021]

Wow, 190, 1st time I've ever heard that. I am certain when I was certified in 1989 140 was the max recreational limit.

What I wasn't sure about was whether there was ever a pre requisite number of dives before being allowed to take an advanced certification class... I know one Resort in Jamaica did require my girlfriend to take the advanced class in order to take her on anything deeper than 60. I was ok with that bc she was by far more than qualified to become an advanced class certified diver at the time she took the class.

 

[TMHeimer]

I was only certified in 2005, so can't answer your questions, but of course have opinions.
I don't know if it was lowered to 60' because PADI wanted to sell more courses. It could be that, or maybe the OW course was just shortened from say, 1970 so it wouldn't cost as much in terms of today's dollars--thus more would get certified and look to take advanced courses and buy gear. I don't know if anyone really knows the reason.

As far as false advertising--yeah maybe to a point. I took AOW after only 10 total dives (including OW course ones). I certainly didn't think of myself as advanced. I would've been a dope. But this has been discussed to death.

 

[mcohen1021]

Thanks for your response... That's exactly my point is that if you had an AOW card, it would mean that what I would expect to see in the water someone who is more comfortable scuba diving than somebody who had just been certified

 

[AdivingBel]

Thanks for your response... That's exactly my point is that if you had an AOW card, it would mean that what I would expect to see in the water someone who is more comfortable scuba diving than somebody who had just been certified

And more than likely that is true. Sure, there may be some 10 dive AOW card carriers out there, but they will be few and far between (at least for long). For a dive op it's proof you've been deeper than 60 ft. at least once and lived to tell about it. Other than your word, a log book (which can be faked), and/or taking the time to do a checkout dive, it's one of the tools the op has to decide if they want to take you to a particular dive site. As there is no scuba police, it's really their boat, their rules. If you're just going to shore dive or use your own boat, then it doesn't really matter what card you carry beyond OW in order to get air fills or rent gear. You're a diver, do what you want. Go dive...

 

[tursiops]

Advanced only means advanced beyond OW. There is little point in exposing naive biases by PADI-bashing. Search a little, and you'll discover this was not initiated by PADI. Sorry to disillusion you.

 

[DevonDiver]

PADI have a strategy to make diving training more accessible. In principle, that's a win-win situation for the agency and the diver. Courses are shortened... bite-size... but with that comes increased limitations. As long as the limitations reflect a prudent end-point for the given training, it's ethical. But people can complete Open Water over several weekends... and most specialties in a single weekend. That's very convenient for many people...and for some, it's their only opportunity.

Some people scoff at the break-down of courses; saying it's just a money-maker. I think that's a little cynical really. Very few people have the time to devote to a 5-day continuous class, even on a vacation. Likewise, few people can commit to spending 6-8 weekends doing diving training.... people have other responsibilities and commitments in life.

There are agencies that cater for people with the time and/or money to do very extensive single courses. Those courses come with a greater range of diving thereafter... less limitations. Or rather, limitations in line with the greater breadth of training completed.

It's important to note that Advanced OPEN WATER is not Advanced 'Diver'. The course title still recognizes that the participants are Open Water divers. It is, in essence, the second-phase of OW training.... whereby the participants build upon the basic skill-set of OW by adding necessary supervised diving experience in a wider range of underwater activities. That is all.... and that is all PADI claim it to be.

A diver can still reach any given end-point through PADI training. The courses are shorter and more frequent. Other agencies offer longer, less frequent, courses to reach the same end-points. Either way, the training and experience should remain equal.

As I said... that is all "in principle".... because where it goes wrong is with the poor course delivery by unscrupulous dive centers/instructors. The PADI system, IMHO, is open to abuse by those willing to sell sub-standard training through delivering only the bare minimum syllabus in the bare minimum timescale.... and certifying students based on attendance, rather than performance. To certify on attendance... where nearly everyone qualifies based on the absolute minimum training demanded.... must mean that performance standards (the concept of 'mastery') is downgraded to meet the lowest common expectations.

Of course, any system or syllabus is open to abuse. I just feel that there is an element in the diving industry who model their business on volume and not quality. Shorter, cheaper courses are more attractive (or tempting?) to sell for volume. Thus begins a downward spiral once that temptation is embraced. I'd blame dive centers for that.... if it were not for the plethora of email inquiries I get every week that illustrate diving customers actively searching for training for the bare minimum of cost, utterly careless of the quality involved.

 

[Pullnglide]

Some dive shops ask for a minimum of 25 or more post ow training dives in order to begin AOW. As previously stated a log book can have false information showing the diver has more dives than they actually have. I always do some ow skills with the student before beginning the AOW course, that will usually tell the tale. I've had multiple students with many recent logged dives panic on the mask removal so I then have them do some remedial ow training before beginning the AOW course. I have known of several DM's and OWSI go somewhere and do 6-8 dives a day to where they go down to 15' for 20 mins and log every dive in order to get to the required dives for certification. IMO that's not any better than doctoring a log book.

 

[Neilwood]

Some dive shops ask for a minimum of 25 or more post ow training dives in order to begin AOW. As previously stated a log book can have false information showing the diver has more dives than they actually have. I always do some ow skills with the student before beginning the AOW course, that will usually tell the tale. I've had multiple students with many recent logged dives panic on the mask removal so I then have them do some remedial ow training before beginning the AOW course. I have known of several DM's and OWSI go somewhere and do 6-8 dives a day to where they go down to 15' for 20 mins and log every dive in order to get to the required dives for certification. IMO that's not any better than doctoring a log book.

But it does count as a dive within the guidelines for those courses. That is the problem with the "zero to hero" type and setting a definitive number of dives (would be better with reference to varieties of conditions dived that provides a lot more experience than the number of dives) Would I want trained by them having so little experience? Certainly not. I would prefer someone with hundreds of real dives under a variety of conditions.