Choice, Challenges and Egos.

[grazie42]

Not to turn this into a "what certs are good for thread", I´d still say that AOW (or equiv.) is almost a minimum to get access to good boats & locations. If you have a good instructor you´ll also learn something during the course but anyway it´d be worth it just for the access.

I think OW is usually enough for almost any kind of diving provided you enter new conditions with someone who is "qualified". Personally I take new certs either for access or for the oppurtunity to learn something. I wouldn´t spend money I could spend on diving for anything else...

 

[MikeFerrara]

Not to turn this into a "what certs are good for thread", I´d still say that AOW (or equiv.) is almost a minimum to get access to good boats & locations. If you have a good instructor you´ll also learn something during the course but anyway it´d be worth it just for the access.

Personally I hate to see this because people are often willing to pay for a worthless AOW just to get the card (site access)

I think OW is usually enough for almost any kind of diving provided you enter new conditions with someone who is "qualified". Personally I take new certs either for access or for the oppurtunity to learn something. I wouldn´t spend money I could spend on diving for anything else...

There's nothing wrong with taking classes just for fun if that's what you like to do. Some people do the same thing with college in the evening. It's time out away from the kiddies with other people doing something you like to do. One of PADI's own reps was quoted as saying that they are selling entertainment...not training.

At the same time a good OW class and some rescue training should give you what you need to do most recreational diving except the experience and you get that by diving.

Cahrters need to be pressured not to place so much weight on a stupid AOW card and more on ability and experience.

 

[ddierolf]

Maybe a few cases are a new divers excitment and wanting to share, in which I am sure I may have been guilty of myself. Never intentional as a boast, just excited to share my humble and limited experience. I have had similar experiences as you have described though. I am suprised that I haven't seen a diver with the pricetags still on the equipment, like some people do when they get a new car. For me diving is a chance to leave that and the world behind and experience the wonderful feeling of how simple and grand life can be.

 

[CuriousMe]

Hi Oceancrest,

I guess I don't understand a few things about your post. Why do you care what folks motivation for diving is? Some people enjoy the continuation of certs and use that as a way to mark what they've learned, some folks get into diving and keep building their skills extending into technical realms, some folks just like to see the pretty fishes once every three years, as long as they're diving within their training and experience.....why does it matter.....it seems like you know your reasons for diving, why do they have to be everyone else's reasons as well or they're wrong?

IMO, your post just sits in judgment of everyone not like you. What qualifies you to just look at someone and decide they shouldn't be diving? How can you tell by looking at someone whether they've had a physical lately? Heck, how do you even tell how fit someone is by looking at them (you can be unfit and thin, or fit and heavier)?

I don't think that living in several places around the world qualifies you for anything but living in several places around the world. It's great that you have multiple hobbies and enjoy them....it seems you do all of them for similar reasons....great for you.

Yes, there are issues in the dive community with training, and how the system is organized. It is sometimes frighteningly easy to get a C-card with not near enough competency displayed (sometimes by both the instructor and the student). To some extent that's the nature of the beast when you train a large population of people in a skill (have you seen some folks drive lately? Ever wondered who gave them their license?). That doesn't mean that folks can't work to make it better.

What does your post add to the process of making it better or educating anyone about a part of the problem? Or was it a place to just display your ego?

Just my .02

Peace,
Cathie

I have been reading through several threads on Scuba Board. Many of the threads run on with travel, training and equipment issues and concerns. Many discussions are great places to learn new ideas and get information.

What has been bugging me for a long time…and perhaps this is related outside of diving…but, what has been bugging me is an apparent ‘culture of ego’ and a crass ‘keeping up with the Joneses’ mentality in diving and in getting certified. There is this tourist herd rush into diving, a rubber stamping certification run for the next level.

In my opinion, what is missing in many divers is a good, concerted effort and skill practice. Among the more ‘advanced’ crowd of divers (tech divers perhaps), there appears to be this bloated ego culture of getting that next china plate or scraping up some other trophy.

My feeling is that many divers miss out on something in their mad rush to the next level. How many of you have dived with an inexperienced instructor, or have been diving with someone who should not be diving? How about an overweight instructor/out of shape dive buddy and you wonder whether he/she has had a good yearly physical? How about the macho / loud mouth diver who has got to advertise the value of his equipment?

I ski, dive, hike, camp and travel…I enjoy many of these activities not in the competitive spirit with someone else or for some trophy, but I enjoy them for the experience and meeting the challenge to improve my skills. I have been diving for about ten years now. I consider myself a good recreational diver and I am about to finish off my DM. I am Nitrox, cavern and intro cave certified. I do a bunch of quarry dives for practice, and I do a bunch of wreck diving off of NC when the summer season kicks in.

I grew up overseas. I have lived and traveled in parts of Asia and Europe. I have dived in Mexico and the Caribbean. I have seen and experienced much. I take my diving seriously. In this sense, I do understand that many other divers enjoy the same or have had similar experiences and back grounds.

In some way, my point here is the Zen and the Art of scuba diving. I see diving as an all encompassing sport involving many angles and variables…the more the edge, the more unpredictable the nature of things.

For example, when I was working on my cavern and cave certifications…the training tightened up my skills and equipment set up…but, what seemed even more important was the character and maturity of one’s dive buddy. Shouldn’t this be a concern in regular recreational diving?

I just do not buy the cavalier arrogance some divers promote and I question the promotional marketing of certification agencies / LDS…casting a wide net to promote the sport, to sell gear and resort accommodations. They almost make it too easy. Yes, true…I started off with PADI and I continue to certify with PADI…the materials are constructive and work well with a good instructor.

I understand that people have to make a living, but what bugs me though is the inevitable…the pending squeeze when all remote locations have been picked over and sold in glossy magazines.

I understand that this is my opinion. Perhaps some of you might care to contribute.

Thank you.

 

[captain]

Of all the posts in this thread I think Geddes nailed it. Like Geddes I have dived for 35 years and hundreds of dives with only a basic open water cert. I can enjoy diving in 10 feet of water and 3 foot visibility or 150 feet of water and 100 foot visibility. One of the thrills of diving is if you are observant you will see something you have never seen before on almost every dive. I keep my equipment simple. Some is new some is 30 years old. All I need is water.

Captain

 

[Jeddah Aquanaut]

Is it ego or experience?

Some advanced and technical divers can come across to the new diver or the outsider as an egotistical ass. I have been accused of this myself at times to those who do not know me.

Many times people come across as asses only because you do not know them, have not spent any time on a dive or boat with them.

I have dove with thousands of divers over the past 22 years and in 99.9% of the time I have found divers to be good people and fun to be with no matter their level of experience.

I said level of experience because level of training does not count. Why, because with today’s pathetic rubber-stamped courses many divers who hold all the cards (including instructors) really hold no experience. I know open water divers with 100X more experience than some course directors and instructors.

Diving is a fins on sport. Experience is the only card that counts in my book.

I don’t need to see your certification card, all I need to see is your equipment and how you swim in the water to tell if you’re a GOOD diver or a BS card collector.

Cards can show a higher level of commitment and interest in diving, but not necessarily so. A good friend of mine did around 1,000 dives while working here in Saudi, and all on a OW card. Oh sure, he was always reading up on all that pertained to diving and all that, but what he was interested in was camping out on the beach with his wife on the weekend, which was their way of relaxing from the grind of work here. After 18 years in Kingdom, they went back to Michigan, with 1,000s of photos, tons of memories of good times shared with friends, and all that they had/needed was a pair of OW cards. It IS possible to know your stuff and not need a credit card holder to keep all your c-cards to prove it. Good divers know they're good, and it shows without even a word spoken.

 

[rmediver2002]

There are more people that want to learn to dive than those who are able to teach it...

The same thing has happened to commercial diving...

Ideally one of the best training concepts for diving would be a mentorship or apprentis program. This concept is no longer popular in large part because our society as a whole has changed to one of more immediate gratification.

I have observed the begining of a backlash towards this view, from my observations the origin was within the technical diving communities and I think (and hope) it will continue to grow...




This issue involves many difficult subjects, would we really prefer more regulation or standards for the sport? It is a liesure activity for most...

A good example is when a person first gets their license to drive, they are obviously not at their peak as far as driving skill as it takes some time on the road in a variety of conditions to improve. Some learn faster than others, some choose to receive advanced instruction, some make it a career... For all some of the same hazards apply, the physics being contained in a heavy vessel with momentum and the hazard of that motion stopping suddenly.

Who is the safer driver, the 10 hour a day truck driver or the newly licensed kid driving to school? Who has a greater chance of getting into an accident?


Just that fact that peple from all skill levels are joining together to discuss issues and ask questions and hopefully learn something is a great step forward that technology has allowed us...

Who is more dedicated to diving safety the new diver trying to research and increase thier skills or the experienced divers sharing their experience?

Personally I commend both, the new divers for not being satisfied with the minimum standards and the professionals for "virtually" mentoring other divers!

 

[DiverDunk]

Yeah, you're right - he was a dork all around. I really wasn't surprised at all that he was a mess in the water after chatting with him on the boat.

Steve

I should have elaborated


Its not the type or brand name of the equipment that shows your experience, anyone can buy the best of the best, its the way you put it togather and how your wear it. Just watch the divers on a cattle boat while they prepare their equipment. Chances are you can pick out the better divers just by looking at them put their stuff togather.

New divers or many C-card divers are unsure of their equipment and they fiddle with it lots before they get in the water. It can look clunky and unstreamlined.

Experienced divers have their act togather even if their stuff is 20 years old and ragged.

 

[DiverDunk]

As I read this thread it seems that some people want to make diving hard just for the sake of making it hard. As someone else pointed out, unless you're making a living at it, you're an amatuer and doing it for fun. Maybe some have replaced actual diving as a hobby with the hobby of card and gear collecting. Let's face it, diving isn't necessarily the big perilous venture into the unknown as it was percieved to be a few decades ago - surrounded by danger and intrigue. Why are so many people still so dramatic about it. My daughter's high scholl is handing out C-cards in P.E. for christ's sake - it's not that hard! (It's actually a decent program, surprisingly.) I'm not insinuating that proper training and safety are not necessary and experience, as in anything, enhances the enjoyment.

The point is that the whole "I've got all these cards and go mega deep thus am superior" thing is realy annoying and I don't think the people caught up in this mentality realize that they frequently come across as a real tool. Just because donning 400 pounds of gear and going 200+ feet with 9 gasses is what it takes to give you a woody dosen't mean your a bettter diver or having more fun than someone cruising a reef in 40' of water. Just get over it, stop annoying everyone, and dive - preferably somewhere deep, dark, and cold where I'll never have to tolerate your presence.

Cheers!

Steve

 

[DiverDunk]

So how would you define a "Carribean Commando"?

Cards - great if they keep goal-oriented people motivated. But what should be motivating them is the quest for skills that *can* be rewarded with cards, or personal gratification.

I am a goal-oriented diver who wants to get better skillwise so that I am qualified to visit more sites, and have more fun visiting them. The Carribean Commandos/Weekend Bottom Crawlers interest me not as buddies. It's rather easy to weed them out, start talking about a dive plan, contingencies, procedures, and most of the Carribean Commandos/etc. will yawn or complain about starting the dive already. The yawners and complainers I opt not to dive with.

Unfortunate as it is, I realize that many divers are the type of diver I choose not to dive with b/c we do not share objectives or agree on level of risk. To me it's survival of the fittest, the Carribean Commandos help keep the LDSs open and compressors available, they create the market demand for dive destinations and dive boat operators. Yay economics. Without them dive boats would be much more expensive and I'd need my own compressor. So thank you Carribean Commandos... all the power to you. I just choose not to buddy with you and hope you don't kick the reef to death.

To each his own.