Check dives, private DMs, and local/shop policies

[peterbj7]

Why don't you just make them pay for their personal DM and take them where they want?

Because I prefer to treat divers as I would wish myself to be treated, with what I might call "vigilant and observant trust". Hasn't let me down yet.

 

[drrich2]

On the issue of pool diving, a lot of Caribbean diving is done with cruise ship divers with time constraint issues, sometimes customers are picked up at more than one site so they don't always start out together, maintaining a pool costs money and if I understand the dive charter boat op. business isn't lucrative to begin with, and a lot of people would skip an op. who required pool 'check out dives' in favor of one that didn't, creating a significant competitive disadvantage. Doing such a thing would also create a strong impression that dive op.s have a duty to assess certified divers for basic competence; I don't know about Mexico, but in the U.S. I wouldn't want to create that strong impression because eventually it'd be used as an example in a court and be enforced.

On the other hand, making the first dive a relatively easy site to observe a group and get a sense of their capability informally is no problem, long as it's a good dive. I wasn't nearly as impressed with Palancar Garden as with Santa Rosa the one time I dove both (which means there's plenty of both I didn't get around to), but I still enjoyed diving P.G.

Richard.

 

[ggunn]

I find the active, arbitrary and rather officious vetting referred to here quite off-putting. .

Referred to here by whom? The only posters in here who actually run dive ops on Cozumel are Dave and Christi, and they both have stated that the way they evaluate divers is to take them on real dives and see how they do. The others are throwing up straw men.

 

[Mike]

I have "evaluated" countless divers over the years, but I don't do it in the blunt and inflexible way that is being suggested here. Obviously I listen to the diver, look at the available records, and form my own initial opinion. Then I invite him/her to go on one of our regular local reef dives. I watch them setting up, and believe me you can tell a great deal about a diver's competence in just a few moments. Then I go out on the boat with them, watch their behaviour on the boat, and enter the water with them. I then watch how they conduct themselves in the early part of the dive - I'm accompanying the group but not leading it. At no point do I normally tell them they are "under scrutiny", and nor do I restrict what they may do on such dives. I don't allow them to do any extreme dives such as the Blue Hole until I'm happy with their diving, but that's all.

You just described the way Aldora evaluates divers.

It's always nice to step back and apply a little logic to the situation such as "if Aldora is doing something so blatantly offensive as is being accused of, how in the hell can they be so successful???????????? The logic doesn't pass the test. They obviously are doing a bunch of stuff extremely right based on their success.

As I said, a mountain is being made out of a mole hill. The vast majority of first time divers with Aldora have no idea anything is happening other than going diving.

 

[scubadada]

I apologize, the intent of this thread, regarding the very unfortunate loss of an inexperienced diver in Cozumel, has largely been lost. Subsequently, there have been disparaging remarks regarding the use of "check out" dives by operators, including Aldora Divers, to group divers by ability. My first experience with Aldora may be useful to others visiting Cozumel and desiring a safe dive environment.

My son and I first visited Cozumel in 2006. We were PADI Rescue/MSD certified with about 175 dives. Our arrival was complicated by the fact that US Airways did not include our scuba gear on our flight. Memo Mendoza and Aldora staff were very understanding and offered to loan us gear for 1st day at no charge. I never got the impression that our training and modest experience were ignored. Our first day of diving was off one of their six packs, Aldora IV. We dived with 2 other divers, a very experienced husband and wife with about 500 dives. I was never aware that our diving skills were being observed and we had great dives at Santa Rosa and Las Palmas. Luckily for us, US Airways delivered our dive gear for the rest of the week. We dived off an experienced diver six pack for the rest of the week and enjoyed Palancar Bricks, San Francisco, Devil's Throat, Punta Tunich, Punta Sur Cathedral, Tormentos, Las Palmas night dive, Barracuda (a ripper), and San Juan. We took one day off to do 2 great dives at Dos Ojos. We had a tremendous time with Cozumel dives averaging 75 minutes. The steel 120s certainly contributed to this result. This was a fantastic dive vacation, you can bet that I do and will use Aldora Divers on all subsequent visits.

I do most of my diving in SE Florida these days in Boynton Beach and Jupiter. I wouldn't hesitate a second to dive with dumpsterDiver though he seems to misunderstand the "check out" dives in Cozumel.

Extremly sorry at the loss of one of our friends in Cozumel, take care and good diving,

Craig

 

[vondo]

You just described the way Aldora evaluates divers.

It's always nice to step back and apply a little logic to the situation such as "if Aldora is doing something so blatantly offensive as is being accused of, how in the hell can they be so successful???????????? The logic doesn't pass the test. They obviously are doing a bunch of stuff extremely right based on their success.

As I said, a mountain is being made out of a mole hill. The vast majority of first time divers with Aldora have no idea anything is happening other than going diving.

Exactly.

I've also been evaluated in the more formal way. "Show that you can swap regulators and clear your mask." etc. Actually the last time I was on a dive like that I was ready to be evaluated, my buddies had to do those things but I did not. Is it the greatest thing in the world? No. But it's not even close to the worst either. Those "chitty" dives can be the place you see things you won't see in a month of diving over reefs. That particular dive we dropped right in on a sea horse, then saw a cuttlefish and a sea dragon. Then we swam over to the house reef and had a nice reef dive. I'd have much rather done that than get up an hour earlier so I could fart around in a 5' pool on my knees showing someone I know how to clear my mask.

Honestly, the only time I can see this being an issue is if you have one day in a place and want to do dives equivalent to Devil's Throat (never done it) or the Blue Hole (done it, bored). No matter what, if that's your goal, you should make sure the op will take you.

 

[TSandM]

I don't very often say much in these discussions, because there usually isn't much to be said, but what I've read here raises some questions in my mind. Dave and Christi (and any other Coz dive op people here), what would your operation do, if one of your instructors did a refresher for someone and felt their skills were weak enough that they needed to hire their own DM, and they refused to do so? Would you still take them out on the boat? Would you change the dive sites? Would your instructor even communicate his concerns with you? I'm just wondering if there is any mechanism for limiting the risk-assumption of a challenged diver who doesn't have the insight to realize that's what they are.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Thanks! I will never be diving with Aldora Divers! To brag about disregarding completely and utterly all log books (and i assume certifications and experience) is insulting to say the least! Seems kinda arrogant too... The entire diving certification universe is inadequate for your operation, and the only way to getting an advanced dive is to prove yourself on a paid dive on a shallow reef... Aldora...

Your decision ... but to my concern, Aldora's policy is completely reasonable.

My one and only trip to Cozumel was with Aldora. At the time I had over 1700 dives ... more than sufficient to be considered experienced ... and didn't feel the least bit put out by their policy to do the first dive in a non-threatening location. In fact it was a nice, relaxing way to start the week ... and far more fun and reasonable than some of the "checkout dives" I've been required to do at other locales around the world.

Aldora is a great op ... small boats, steel 120 tanks, and very good dive guides. If I ever return to Coz, they'd be the first op I'd look into diving with.

YMMV ... but I'll never fault a dive op for thinking first of the safety of their guests. I didn't, in the least, find their policy limiting or patronizing to a more experienced diver ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[dpaustex]

T, that's an interesting point.

The point of a refresher is not to teach any skills. It is simply to "go over" or "refresh" what a student is already supposed to know.

I recently did one for an old student of mine - who dove two years ago - and she nailed everything.

I have never failed a student, but have had quite a few that needed some extra help. I also make a point to tell them to go dive a hard bottom, and ease their way into more difficult stuff, etc.

But what do you do when someone insists they don't want help? Brings up the point of "card" diving. To me, a certain c-card doesn't mean that much - show me what you know.

 

[Christi]

I don't very often say much in these discussions, because there usually isn't much to be said, but what I've read here raises some questions in my mind. Dave and Christi (and any other Coz dive op people here), what would your operation do, if one of your instructors did a refresher for someone and felt their skills were weak enough that they needed to hire their own DM, and they refused to do so? Would you still take them out on the boat? Would you change the dive sites? Would your instructor even communicate his concerns with you? I'm just wondering if there is any mechanism for limiting the risk-assumption of a challenged diver who doesn't have the insight to realize that's what they are.

This has actually been the case for us on more than one occasion. It is a fine line and a lot of discretion on a case by case basis is of course appropriate. Yes, my DM's and Instructors WOULD communicate their concerns and as I said, they have on more than one occasion - ESPECIALLY when it is a diver that has minimal experience (AOW card means nothing at that point) and has taken a long hiatus from diving. I can say that not a single person who we have required to have a private DM has complained afterwards - in fact - they have thanked me and often made the choice to continue with a private DM for the remainder of their dive week. We have also put private DM's with people after their refresher because the DM still had concerns regarding buoyancy, nerves, ability to descend/ascend on their own and various other reasons. Safety comes before EGO - and we operate on a show me, don't tell me theory!

I also have a written policy that is included on my website as well as provided to all of those diving their first time with us:

From my website:
New Divers and Junior Divers:
We reserve the right to require a private divemaster for the first day (and subsequent days if necessary) OR a refresher dive with an instructor at the diver’s expense if:

• A diver has not made a dive in more than 18 months
• a new diver with less than 10 ocean drift dives
• a nervous diver needing special attention
• a diver cannot maintain a safety stop at 15ft on his/her own without assistance

Per local marine park regulations, all dives must be guided by a local divemaster or instructor and the dive groups must stay together at all times. The depth limitations for Junior divers under the age of 15 cannot be imposed on the entire group, therefore a private divemaster is required for Junior Divers (12 to 14 years old) at the divers expense. Again, we stress that this policy is for the safety and enjoyment of all divers on board. Exceptions to this may be made if your group fills the boat (5 to 6 divers) and agrees to a 60 foot maximum depth or if the diver holds a Junior advanced open water certification.
A private Divemaster for those requesting one or for those who are required to have one per our policies is $50 for a two-tank dive (for up to four divers per DM). This fee simply covers the additional expenses for the private divemaster.
Obviously we use discretion and do not require every diver that has taken an 18 month hiatus to take a refresher or hire a private DM - this is primarily for those with minimal experience and who have not dove recently. A diver that comes in with 500 dives and hasn't dove in a couple of years is not going to be held to these standards.

AS far as advanced dives - everyone is held to the same standard - we do not take ANY diver, regardless of their logbook or certification card, to sites considered advanced or expert (Maracaibo,Punta Sur, Devils Throat, Barracuda) on the first day! Do we put them under tight "check-out scrutiny and take them to a boring sand-bar dive? Of course not - we take them on a standard dive, let them dive their air and computer and show them the best of Cozumel diving on each of their dive days - whether that includes one of these chest thumping "been there done that" dives or not - they will get beautiful and enjoyable dives and they will not be held back by "newbies" A seasoned DM (which mine absolutely qualify as) can tell a lot about a diver by his behavior on the boat, by watching him handle his gear, and doing a dive or two with him.