CESA from 40ft

[TMHeimer]

Something no one has yet discussed. From your posts it seems like both you and your daughter are either newly certified, or soon to be certified. Your daughter's age aside, be VERY CAREFUL about diving with two newbies as buddies. Get some experience yourself first before taking on the task of monitoring your child. Or at the very least have a responsible and experienced diver accompany you as a third in the buddy pair. Stay very simple. Good visibility, shallow areas, avoid adding tasks (photography, etc) until both of you are very comfortable. Take additional training. When you've got a few dives under your belt then take the Rescue class.

I've recently undertaken Divemaster training to supervise a older youth group. While I have been diving for 40 years and feel very comfortable underwater, it was a real eye-opener watching one of my youth PANIC and bolt for the surface during the mask flood drill. Kudos to the instructional team - they handled it very well - but I was sure glad I wasn't the one responsible yet.

Recent accidents and the training I've almost finished have changed my thoughts on supervising youth divers (mine are all over 14) and I've come to the conclusion that supervision needs to be close and buddies must contain one experienced and responsible diver in the group. No newbie pairs alone. This includes my two Eagle Scout sons (18 and 16). The OW training is BASIC. Newly certified divers have a LEARNER'S PERMIT. If you, and your daughter, are truly comfortable underwater there is less chance of having an emergency, and if you do, less chance of panic. How do you get comfortable? Experience and more experience. Just dive under easy conditions and get comfortable. Do some pool time, do games in the pool...

Yeah, I never gave it a thought back when I was diving with my fellow newbie buddy. Since then I have given that MUCH thought.

 

[Thalassamania]

As far as a "done deal" with respect to the rather simple requirements of a CESA I must, respectfully as a fellow parent, disagree. There are many unexpected sorts of things that result in tragedies, a panic-stricken blow and go, especially from a shallow depth, should never be one of them. As long as a diver can comfortably make a breath hold free dive to the depth that they are using scuba they should have the confidence (and confidence is the panic killer) needed to perform a CESA without undue danger.

 

[Moerby]

As far as a "done deal" with respect to the rather simple requirements of a CESA I must, respectfully as a fellow parent, disagree.

Not sure what you're disagreeing with. In the event of an emergency, while following correct procedures enhances your likelihood of survival it doesn't guarantee it. The "Accidents" forum is testimony of that. If you're stating that proper training and confidence will guarantee survival in an emergency then yes, we will most certainly have to disagree on that.

 

[Thalassamania]

There we will disagree then, at least when it comes to the ability to safely conduct a CESA.

 

[Subcooled]

1) A safe ascent from 40ft (at the PADI recommended maximum ascent rate of 60ft/min) takes 40 seconds.

2) If you breathe your cylinders empty, you will notice an increasing breathing resistance, and you will know that you are running out of air, but you will still have a few breaths of air left. You can then do a completely normal ascent. I have actually tested this in the safety of a shallow pool, sitting at the bottom next to the ladders, relaxing at 0 bar, and I could still suck more than five breaths from the bottle. After about a minute or two, when sucking air became really hard work (and a drop of water accidentally leaked in between the mouthpiece and lips - THAT was awkward), I just slowly swam 13ft up to the surface. You should probably NOT do the same drill, as there are some risks involved. If something goes wrong and you inhale water, you die.

3) Everything goes well if you just do a relaxed moderate speed ascent AND have the courage to empty your lungs so that they do not burst. Survival is a mental thing: If your mind fails, you die. Face your fears (without doing anything dangerous). Practice. Be safe. Relax.

4) If you must get a breath of air during those 40 seconds of ascent, there are a few left in the tank. And even if there wouldn't be, you would still make it. Just keep the regulator in the mouth. As ambient pressure drops, a bit more air can be drawn from the tank during ascent.

5) If you suddenly completely loose your air, you have probably dropped your BCD vest with tank and weights to the abyss, hence making you rather buoyant, and reaching the surface will go like this: YouTube - ‪Submarine Cruise Missile Launch‬‏

 

[fjpatrum]

Sure, that much is obvious! But let me be clear in case there's any doubt ... when we finally DO dive outside of a pool environment you can be damn sure I'll monitor her performance like a hawk, and if I feel she's not up to it, I won't let her dive, period.

At the same time, I've read enough threads on this forum to know that even the best divers get distracted, make mistakes, have equipment failures (your eyes can be glued to your SPG but if it's faulty, you will still run out of air!), get done in by mother nature, etc.

So while I hope for the best I will be planning for the worst if it's all the same to everyone, and part of that process is asking these questions.

While it seems obvious at this point, you're still asking the question. To which we all provided answers that you would automatically assume were reasonable if directed toward someone else. You may even assume that it's reasonable directed at you, but what you're putting out here doesn't appear that way to me. Giving her the skills to be cognizant of her gas is an easy task. You check your gauges and show her your gas and she checks her gauges and then shows you. Just make sure to stress that she needs to look at and understand the significance of her gas levels before she shows it to you to double check. That way, there's no emergency to plan for other than something like a heart attack.

This is one of those situations where the arbitrary "500 left in the tank" actually seems like a good idea to me. Above 40 feet, you can get a very long dive out of 2500 pounds of gas (assuming a full fill of a 3000 pound tank) and there's no reason to push the envelope with down time. You can always just strap on another tank and go down again if that first hour wasn't enough. If your SPG is so faulty that you have no gas when it is reading 500 or more then you have bigger problems, I suspect. Then again, maybe people aren't as cynical as I am and don't double check their gear as often as I do against other people's gear. I participate in a lot of "life or death" sports where safety is the utmost concern. I'm familiar with double and triple checking people and gear because my life (and theirs) depends on it.

Other failures or emergencies are just nuisances as long as you have gas to breathe.

 

[Moerby]

While it seems obvious at this point, you're still asking the question.

I wasn't asking if she should be diving if she is not able to master the basic skills because the answer to that question IS obvious.

 

[SailNaked]

My biggest concern is that my daughter makes it to the surface alive, be it through a normal ascent, a controlled buoyant ascent, CESA, or ascending while breathing from my alt 2nd stage.

Unfortunately the training doesn't really tell you what to expect when you do a CESA from around 40 ft. Sure, there's the usual disclaimers and warnings, and I understand everybody's physiology is different so there isn't really a one-size-fits all answer, but in general, when someone does a CESA from 40 feet, how much risk to your health is there from that?

as a side note there is not really such thing as a controlled bouyant asscent, once you get bouyant and are ascending it is all but impossible to control.


unofficially, and not reccomended however in the been done catagory, you can do a controlled swiming ascent from as deep as 120 feet. (I have personally done it from 60).
the problem as I see it is that if you are doing it when you have to you will not be in the state of mind to do it properly unless you are able to control you thinking in an emergency.
If you are a swimmer then swimming maybe 75 ft underwater on one breath should not be too much of a challenge. and at that depth you actually have about 4 breaths (due to the air being compressed). if you breath out small bubbles you will feel as if you are about to be out of air for a very long time. also remember that most people can hold their breath (on the surface) for about a minute. at 60 ft/m that is plenty to get you to the surface without dying.

in all if you have no deco obligation, you are somewhat fit and a decent swimmer, then you should not have a life threating problem at any recreational depth if you run out of air and you keep your head.

Bring it big boys.

 

[Moerby]

Then again, maybe people aren't as cynical as I am and don't double check their gear as often as I do against other people's gear. I participate in a lot of "life or death" sports where safety is the utmost concern. I'm familiar with double and triple checking people and gear because my life (and theirs) depends on it.

I'm now retired from a profession that was extremely dangerous. Naturally we had procedures and protocols to follow in case of emergency. We trained constantly, and then we trained again. Over and over. Yet it's those seemingly simple "you'll never get hurt with proper training" incidents that caused the most injury and fatalities. So yes, proper training and experience reduces risk, reduces injury, etc. but having seen with my own eyes that things can still go wrong despite all that, the next step is to make sure you prepare yourself with information beyond what is taught in class. That is why I ask these "what if?" questions.

 

[Moerby]

as a side note there is not really such thing as a controlled bouyant asscent, once you get bouyant and are ascending it is all but impossible to control.

You read my mind!

Something else which is not really taught in class, is the rate at which you have to exhale. PADI says say "ahhhhhh", which makes perfect sense. But there's "ahhh" and then there's AAAHHHH!!!!!" Would you at least feel the building outward pressure in your chest cavity to let you know you're not exhaling quickly enough?