Certification-Which One?

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I certainly haven't said that Tom. I believe the agency impacts the student more than the individual instructor, as it chooses who is to become certified as an instructor (establishing instructor standards), they can restrict the instructor as to what s/he can and cannot teach to an OW student (very agency dependent), restrict how and in what order the student is taught and establish the standards upon which a diver is to be certified.

There are HUGE differences in agencies and the degree of restriction they place on the instructor and what the instructor can require for certification over and above the minimum. In fact in some agencies the instructor must teach/examine to the (minimum) standard.

Granted. However a great padi instructor can teach a better and more comprehensive course than a crummy naui, ssi, sdi, etc instructor(Im assuming you are talking padi when refering to not being able to go above and beyond). The agency has very little to do with the quality of instruction after the ITC is complete.
Yes there are instructors(including myself) that teach challenging and comprehensive courses, but to say that all Naui instructors are that way just because I am is un realistic.
 
To say anything about a specific instructor being better or worse just because of agency affiliation is not supportable, but to say that the expected quality of a course taught under the auspices of say, naui, ssi, sdi, etc. is higher than the expected quality of a PADI course is quite supportable.
 
What you are missing is that it is an apples and oranges comparison. PADI programs, by design, and by policy, can be idealized by a rather steep bell curve (small standard deviation) if you measure "quality" on the X-axis and frequency on the Y-axis. Other agencies (again idealized) have no left hand tail, that is cut off by minimum standards, but have a right hand tail that extends way out since the only limit (with minor exception) to what may be added is the instructors' creativity and judgment. So, while the standard deviation is much higher, the average "quality" is also slightly higher, both because of the right shift due to the tail length as well as the requirement that for certain items like rescue.

If you were to apply an ANOVA approach to the problem I suspect that what you would see significant variation due to agency. In the old days, when most non-PADI instructors greatly exceeded minimum requirements to properly meet local needs, I suspect that the between agency variance greatly exceeded the between instructor variance, however, today, with many non-PADI instructors teaching what is basically a PADI course with a few additional items tossed in the between instructor variance appears more important, and I'd posit that the between agency variance, while still significant, has dropped but only as a proportion of the whole with concomitant growth in the instructor*agency interactive term.

Thal, did you sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night?
 
No, but I do have a mathematical ecologist's view of the world around me.
 
Granted. However a great padi instructor can teach a better and more comprehensive course than a crummy naui, ssi, sdi, etc instructor(Im assuming you are talking padi when refering to not being able to go above and beyond). The agency has very little to do with the quality of instruction after the ITC is complete.
Yes there are instructors(including myself) that teach challenging and comprehensive courses, but to say that all Naui instructors are that way just because I am is un realistic.

Tom, you could be the world's leading mathematician and if you were not allowed to teach past a grade one curriculum, how do you think you would stack-up against another teacher that could expand upon the program? I'm not suggesting that the quality of the instructor's ability or knowledge is any different, but the results definitely are. An inability to see this is willful blindness. The agency has EVERYTHING to do with the POTENTIAL scope of the training! On one side you can teach X and evaluate on nothing else but X, on the other the sky's the limit... Please don't suggest that you can't see the difference.
 
Probably not as most degrees only require up to cal 1 or worse yet, calculus with business applications, which I don't think would even count in the math curriculum. But I could be wrong
 
Dc, when refering to the potential of a given class, yes the agency does make a difference. All I'm trying to express is that regardless of if you graduated college with a masters in cumulitive mathematics at harvard, or west Podunk community college you still have the same degree.
The assumption that one agency stamps out better divers than the other is very relative. Mind you I have seen course directors that I wouldn't want to buddy up with on a wreck dive, and non certified school of hard knocks divers that I would trust my kids to dive with. No diver no matter the agency is an expert diver coming out of an OW class, nor are they self reliant. So if they are none of those things, and that is what we expect out of a quality diver, why not extend EVERY agency's curriculum to the point that you must have at least DM level skills before being allowed to dive indepenently?
A: Because it is an unrealistic expectation. I personally believe that Padi's standards create divers that are just as competent as any agency out there. If they didn't, I guess I was an incompetent diver for a few years.
 
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