Certification-Which One?

[Mike Boswell]

Wayne, just getting terminology straight. Of course you teach skills that are then combined into exercises (skill-sets). I guess I see the term "modular" as emblematic of the PADI rules that make skills (and exercises) be taught in specific orders at specific junctures in a course, something that I know neither of us supports.

Thal, I am curious to know what your objection to this is. The only thing I can think of is that you feel it's too inflexible, with not enough leeway given to the instructor.

 

[Thalassamania]

Mike, you're thinking right. First of all I have many more pool and ocean sessions thanb the "modular" programs are designed to accommodate. When I design a course it's not a matter of sticking extra things in between the modular milestones. I don't think in terms of skills, but rather in terms of a sequence of exercises. Each pool session has an exercise that is completed, then that exercise is taken to the ocean and performed there. Each exercise is made up of a number of skills, and all those skills must be learned first, then put together into a completed exercise.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Mike, you're thinking right. First of all I have many more pool and ocean sessions thanb the "modular" programs are designed to accommodate. When I design a course it's not a matter of sticking extra things in between the modular milestones. I don't think in terms of skills, but rather in terms of a sequence of exercises. Each pool session has an exercise that is completed, then that exercise is taken to the ocean and performed there. Each exercise is made up of a number of skills, and all those skills must be learned first, then put together into a completed exercise.

Sounds like a great course, the kind I would like to take, or if I were an instructor, the kind I would like to teach.

 

[DCBC]

Hi Wayne:

You are putting me to a lot of trouble here - I hope somebody appreciates it.

Hey Mike,

Like my discussion with Thal, I suppose it surrounds terminology. As this is the New divers/considering diving thread, perhaps it's inappropriate to have a discussion on agency training philosophies here (I'm the one that has got into trouble for doing this in the past).

Suffice it to say, that the major differences lie in one agency requiring a finite knowledge/skill base that is required for certification and the others set out what they call "minimum standards" and encouraging their instructors to surpass this level. In this case, anything that's added to the program IS required for certification, at the instructor's discretion.

As far as terminology is concerned, the Royal Lifesaving Society refers to 'Rescue' as 'immediate assistance in the recovery of a victim whom is in immediate danger of drowning.' An 'Assist' is given to those who are not in immediate danger of drowning and who can support themselves on the surface, but require assistance. I believe that the American Red Cross uses similar terminology. The point of the buddy system is to lend assistance to the other diver in eventuality of need. If a person is unable to do so, because of insufficient training, they cannot perform the duties required of them in this capacity. This has been recognized by the greatest majority of training agencies.

By the way, I'm correct in saying that a PADI instructor is currently prohibited from teaching buddy breathing to an OW student. Your textbook does not reflect current standards.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Hey Mike,

Like my discussion with Thal, I suppose it surrounds terminology. As this is the New divers/considering diving thread, perhaps it's inappropriate to have a discussion on agency training philosophies here (I'm the one that has got into trouble for doing this in the past).

Suffice it to say, that the major differences lie in one agency requiring a finite knowledge/skill base that is required for certification and the others set out what they call "minimum standards" and encouraging their instructors to surpass this level. In this case, anything that's added to the program IS required for certification, at the instructor's discretion.

As far as terminology is concerned, the Royal Lifesaving Society refers to 'Rescue' as 'immediate assistance in the recovery of a victim whom is in immediate danger of drowning.' An 'Assist' is given to those who are not in immediate danger of drowning and who can support themselves on the surface, but require assistance. I believe that the American Red Cross uses similar terminology. The point of the buddy system is to lend assistance to the other diver in eventuality of need. If a person is unable to do so, because of insufficient training, they cannot perform the duties required of them in this capacity. This has been recognized by the greatest majority of training agencies.

By the way, I'm correct in saying that a PADI instructor is currently prohibited from teaching buddy breathing to an OW student. Your textbook does not reflect current standards.

Sorry, Wayne, I stand corrected. Although we were taught all these buddy and rescue procedures - several of the agencies, including PADI, have recently dropped buddy breathing from their OW courses. This was done in recognition that most divers now carry a spare regulator and practice air sharing, which is still taught.

 

[DCBC]

Sorry, Wayne, I stand corrected. Although we were taught all these buddy and rescue procedures - several of the agencies, including PADI, have recently dropped buddy breathing from their OW courses. This was done in recognition that most divers now carry a spare regulator and practice air sharing, which is still taught.

I believe that it was just PADI that made this change. Buddy Breathing and Rescue are still required for every other initial diver certification worldwide, to the best of my knowledge.

PADI introduces rescue as a requirement at the third training level (Rescue Diver). Other agencies continue to increase rescue skills at each training level and expand these during the Rescue program. All agencies encourage all divers to be Rescue Diver qualified. The only difference is that the other agencies introduce these skills to new divers; as they believe that this is an intricate part of the buddy system and required for diver safety.

 

[kaerius]

Till then, let me know what they say about surfacing an unconscious diver.

Got my answer, they said that it's not recommended, because then it wouldn't be a PADI OW course anymore, which could give me legal trouble in case of an incident.

About the closest thing they gave me to an out was that I could expand upon what was already in the course, such as buoyancy and ascents.

 

[DCBC]

Got my answer, they said that it's not recommended, because then it wouldn't be a PADI OW course anymore, which could give me legal trouble in case of an incident.

About the closest thing they gave me to an out was that I could expand upon what was already in the course, such as buoyancy and ascents.

This is an example of what I was saying about PADI restricting what their instructors can or cannot teach their OW students. It emphasizes that regardless of how good the instructor is, the scope of the training that a student receives, is largely dependent upon the agency involved.

 

[Thalassamania]

A clear example of where it is the agency, not just the instructor.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

As far as terminology is concerned, the Royal Lifesaving Society refers to 'Rescue' as 'immediate assistance in the recovery of a victim whom is in immediate danger of drowning.' An 'Assist' is given to those who are not in immediate danger of drowning and who can support themselves on the surface, but require assistance. I believe that the American Red Cross uses similar terminology. The point of the buddy system is to lend assistance to the other diver in eventuality of need. If a person is unable to do so, because of insufficient training, they cannot perform the duties required of them in this capacity. This has been recognized by the greatest majority of training agencies.

I believe that it was just PADI that made this change. Buddy Breathing and Rescue are still required for every other initial diver certification worldwide, to the best of my knowledge.

So you are saying Buddy Breathing and "Rescue" (as defined above) are required by all agencies except PADI?

I am looking at my IANTD Standards and Procedures Manual (revised 6/01) and...

20. Recommended (not required) Simulate or perform (Instructor's option) manual gas sharing emergency.

And the only buddy assist skill is...

7. Tow a diver for a distance of 30 feet (9 meters) with both the upper body method and again by the fin push method.

I am relatively sure there are quite a few others.