CDFW Officers Cite Two for Abalone Poaching in Marine Protected Area

[red_instead]

Don't know why you'd think that a troll, it was in keeping with our discussion. First you don't read the posts, repeating your misunderstanding regarding RS requirements in CA for F&W LE (that made the 2/10 effort jab more than a little insulting), then you dismiss the critical 4A requirement that RS is predicated on evidence of criminal activity, substituting your personal insight that simply the *possibility* of criminal activity is, 'from a practical standpoint', equivalent in the important role of RS gating of LE interaction with the citizenry. That utter disregard (ignorance?) - from a principled standpoint - for the 4A prompted my terse sarcasm.

OK, before I respond to that, are you really arguing that Fish and Game can stop just anyone to conduct a search? Cuz that's not what the caselaw says.

 

[spoolin01]

They CAN just stop anyone and conduct a search of any place they think F&W 'contraband' might be, IF they have reason to think the person has been involved in hunting or fishing. What that requires in real life, I can't say for sure, but on the face of it, it's not much of a hurdle. It's also a tremendous break with the spirit of the 4A requirement for probable cause, as the attorneys in that link bemoan. The use of such 'general warrants' is in the public mind quite a bit these days, and is part of the seemingly consistent trend of 4A erosion. That distinction - particularity and specificity of probable cause, vs. 'shake 'em down just in case' - was what my troll was directed at.

I don't happen to think personally that it HAS to be a big risk to offer F&W LE that exception, because without some measure of it, there could be little effective law enforcement of F&W laws. For the most part, F&W crimes are procedural transgressions in a setting with no complainants, and virtually no witnesses or other inculpatory documentary trail. That's quite different from many or most other crimes - which of course could also more efficiently be prosecuted w/o pesky civil liberty protections. But that concession to F&W LE should be on a very short leash.

 

[dytis-sm]

Somebody recently mentioned that he came across F&G while in the water... Is that for real? That sounds funny...I cannot imagine getting a tap on my shoulder while fishing for lobsters at night, and see another diver pointing a badge at me. Has anyone heard of F&G people in the water?

 

[muzikbiz22]

Somebody recently mentioned that he came across F&G while in the water... Is that for real? That sounds funny...I cannot imagine getting a tap on my shoulder while fishing for lobsters at night, and see another diver pointing a badge at me. Has anyone heard of F&G people in the water?

They are everywhere.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

Opening night of lobster season. They catch a few every year at the Redondo Breakwater.

 

[AZTinman]

For the most part, F&W crimes are procedural transgressions in a setting with no complainants, and virtually no witnesses or other inculpatory documentary trail.

Folks are certainly welcome to speculate and think what they want to. This is America... land of the free... and home of the first amendment.

Speaking from the perspective of someone who worked with state and federal wildlife management agencies, lots of people would be surprised to learn of how many F & W crimes involve witnesses and other exculpatory documentary trails.

I don't ever recall simply asking someone if he/she had been hunting or fishing and then asking what he/she had in his/her bag. I do remember working with undercover officers, spending hours watching hunters through my binoculars and/or spotting scope, staking out elaborate, commercial poaching camps and collecting evidence from wildlife crime scene locations. None of the people I worked with ever pursued a case without probable cause.

Of course, the reality of my experience may differ from the opinions of others and simply may not be a good fit with the opinions of others. Hopefully, a few other folks share in my appreciation of what the hunting & fishing cops do. I'm of the opinion that those who poach wildlife steal from the rest of us and I really don't like that.

-AZTinman

 

[spoolin01]

You never approached anyone to ask for a license and to check their gear or catch w/o first observing evidence of a crime? That's unlike any warden I've ever encountered.

The law may be different in AZ, or wherever you formed your opinion, but here the cold call is common enough. Big cases, ongoing investigations, even those quick catches involving surveillance, are going to be more like traditional criminal cases. But in CA they also do dragnets, stopping every vehicle coming down the coast highway for instance, like a sobriety checkpoint. At the end of the weekend to further leverage their efforts, they report their catch stats, a couple hundred citations in an afternoon. Invariably small-time stuff like incorrect documentation, but a few limit and size violations as well. It keeps the fine $$ flowing, and no doubt helps keep people in line.

The launch ramps are another venue - nearly every Saturday and Sunday when fishing is open, there are a one to a handful of wardens at the ramp. Every boat coming back is challenged and boarded, or offers up their cooler on the dock.

Different segments of the scene.

 

[AZTinman]

Just in the interest in clarification... no, I was never a game warden, fish cop (seemed to be a popular reference among the poacher crowd), or wildlife officer. I worked as a park ranger assigned to a resource management office with the National Park Service. The easy answer is, "Nope, I never approached anyone and asked for a license or to check their gear or catch.

My attitude and perspective was developed based upon my work with Colorado Division of Wildlife Officers and U.S. Fish & Wildlife Sevice Agents, as well as, spending a considerable portion of my life engaging in hunting and fishing activities. Despite close working and personal relationships with individuals from these agencies, I never witnessed any of them do the 'shake 'em down just in case' thing referred to in an earlier post. I used to hunt and fish with several of these guys. Oops... there goes the concept that people like me must be some kind of tree hugging, eco-terrorists.

I always found it interesting that the bad guys who didn't play by the rules or follow regulations always wanted to squeal foul when penalties were imposed because the good guys enforced the rules and regulations. Those mean ole game wardens just cited them and took their gear because they just committed a crime that shouldn't be considered a big deal. They probably didn't mean it. The world would be a much happier place if there were no rules and everyone could just do as they pleased... right?

Some years back, I participated in a night-time sting operation that used a robotic deer decoy. Deer populations were being decimated in the area by poachers who were doing their thing after dark. As I sat in the truck with a Colorado Division of Wildlife Area Manager, I asked him (jokingly), "Since when did it become illegal to shoot a fake deer in Colorado at night?" Of course, he growled something back at me about using the decoy to establish probable cause. Too be sure, those pesky game wardens are always looking for ways to bust some poor maligned individual with abuse and misuse of that probable cause stuff.

Personally, I wouldn't object to having my license or my cooler checked if I still fished and/or hunted. Back when I did that kind of stuff, I simply followed the rules. It really is all about making sure people are following the rules and communicating that following the rules is an expectation. How about developing a sense of appreciation for the work these guys do to protect our resources and us from people who do stupid stuff?

-AZTinman

---------- Post added June 12th, 2013 at 11:39 AM ----------

Does anyone remember the post a while back which featured a happy, smiling spear-fisherman with the Giant Sea Bass he had taken?

Please pardon my sarcasm... his expression clearly communicated how upset he was with himself for taking a protected species and I'm sure some here just didn't understand why other forum members were outraged. Besides it was only one fish and he really didn't mean to break the law... right? Those damn 'fish cops' probably cited him. What were they thinking? I hope they didn't violate his constitutional rights.

-AZTinman

---------- Post added June 12th, 2013 at 11:46 AM ----------

Okay... I've probably beaten this 'dead' abalone thing enough. I'll stop now.

-AZTinman

 

[spoolin01]

Personally, I wouldn't object to having my license or my cooler checked if I still fished and/or hunted. Back when I did that kind of stuff, I simply followed the rules. It really is all about making sure people are following the rules and communicating that following the rules is an expectation. How about developing a sense of appreciation for the work these guys do to protect our resources and us from people who do stupid stuff?

I think most people generally agree with that - to a point.

 

[OkByMe]

You never approached anyone to ask for a license and to check their gear or catch w/o first observing evidence of a crime? That's unlike any warden I've ever encountered.

The law may be different in AZ, or wherever you formed your opinion, but here the cold call is common enough. Big cases, ongoing investigations, even those quick catches involving surveillance, are going to be more like traditional criminal cases. But in CA they also do dragnets, stopping every vehicle coming down the coast highway for instance, like a sobriety checkpoint. At the end of the weekend to further leverage their efforts, they report their catch stats, a couple hundred citations in an afternoon. Invariably small-time stuff like incorrect documentation, but a few limit and size violations as well. It keeps the fine $$ flowing, and no doubt helps keep people in line.

The launch ramps are another venue - nearly every Saturday and Sunday when fishing is open, there are a one to a handful of wardens at the ramp. Every boat coming back is challenged and boarded, or offers up their cooler on the dock.

Different segments of the scene.

Spoolin just made my point about enforcement over-reach. No way in hell am I going to put up with that. Guilty until you prove yourself innocent. somebody is always guilty of something, maybe just not of what you are accused of.....

This actually happened to me.

I spend a lot of time at a lake in Arkansas. This lake is in 3 counties, one of which is a "dry" county. The motor home that had our supplies was in a wet county, the houseboat was beached across the lake in a wet county. You have to drive the boat through the dry county to get to the river beach. We ran out of whiskey and beer and some food stuff. I jumped in my Bass boat and boogied to the camp. I had to take my tackle box and some rods out to put all the stuff into the boxes.

On the way back I pulled into a Marina in the dry county to get some gas. The was a couple of game wardens in a boat at the dock. One of them came up to me and asked what I was catching. I told him I had not been fishing. He said if I had not been fishing, why did I have fishing gear out on the boat. I told him I had a bunch of food and drink I was ferrying to a houseboat and did not have room for all the gear to be stowed. He wanted to look in my live well. Well that pissed my off... I told him I had not been fishing. (The beer and wine and whiskey was in the live well on Ice.) He attempted to step aboard my boat and I told him DO NOT board my boat!. He asked for my fishing license and I told him I had not been fishing. I had a fishing license. I asked if he had legitimate business like checking the vessel for safety, registration or operator compliance and none of which required him to board my boat. He said no, that everything seemed OK, and again asked for my fishing license, which I produced. He handed it back and I asked if he had any other business. He still wanted to look in the live well. I told him at that point that I would not answer any more questions, that I satisfied the requirements that he could enforce and that he would need a search warrant to board my boat. I also told them if they were willing to follow me back to the houseboat, I would then allow them to board my boat and check the live well.

They both looked at me with a "WHAT" look, but this one guy was so intent on looking in the well, that they agreed. When I got to the house boat and started handing out the supplies, it became evident why I did not allow the search. They said they did not have enforcement authority for the beverages, since they had not seen me drinking and operating the boat, or that evidence of consumption was not in open view. I told them that once I gave permission to board and search, that anything they may find, whether or not they had enforcement authority, could be used against me and it would have been a simple task to call the County Sheriff. However, we got into a debate on whether they could have held or detained me.