CCR: Sooner or later?

[ScoobaChef]

Hi everyone!
I have just completed my first try dive with the JJ CCR and I thought I would share my observations and experience.
First thing out of the gate, we sat down and had a run through of the basic operation of the unit, bailout procedures and the major differences between OC and CC.  Then over to the bench and run through the myriad of checks and adjustments, how to monitor the loop, manual gas addition, etc.
Next it was out to the beach for some basic skills in waist deep water.  It felt just like being in open water class again . I knew the rig would be floaty, but kinda surprised that it only took 5 additional pounds to get me properly neutral again.
Once down, I practiced switching from cc to oc and back, loop removal and recovery and just getting accustomed to the different feel of breathing without the benefit of pressure driven regs.
Then we were off. The location we were at has a gently sloping bottom, very gradually dropping down to 20m. Very slowly, we worked our way down, with me feeling very much a beginner again. Pretty much everything I knew about buoyancy control went out the window and I was simultaneously bouncing off the bottom, while trying to balance the loop volume, wing, and drysuit, and concentrate on breathing slowly and evenly.  It took a while but eventually I was able to get some slight semblance of neutrality and really started to enjoy myself, getting right up close to fish and enjoying the relative quiet.
All too soon, it was time to return and we slowly traveled back up the slope. I took my time, carefully venting everything, pausing every meter or so to evaluate what was going on, until we were back at the beach.
All in all, I found it to be and extremely challenging, but very fun experience. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but in my opinion, it's not so much how much OC skill and training you have had, but rather how calm and comfortable you can be underwater with a lot of s&!t going on.
i'm still not sure how I will proceed, but I do know that somewhere in the future, CCR is for me.
I have been to the dark side and I loved it!

 

[berk]

I don't think there is much to lose doing a bunch of extended Nitrox dives and using 50% and O2 for stages. Or you can dive 28/15 or a real light mix etc. There are lots of 90-140 dives that deserve 40-100+ minutes.

- You can push off the really big purchase and training, gain great experience and see tons of wrecks etc.
- You get experience simply decompressing, you get experience switching and stowing stage bottles.
- When the SHTF in a big way you will be on OC and the day will come when that happens.
- Jumping in for training dives to shoot bags and work on the basics is so much easier with just a some tanks.
- I would say the market for selling used doubles is deep than the market for rebreathers.

 

[ScoobaChef]

I don't think there is much to lose doing a bunch of extended Nitrox dives and using 50% and O2 for stages. Or you can dive 28/15 or a real light mix etc. There are lots of 90-140 dives that deserve 40-100+ minutes.

- You can push off the really big purchase and training, gain great experience and see tons of wrecks etc.
- You get experience simply decompressing, you get experience switching and stowing stage bottles.
- When the SHTF in a big way you will be on OC and the day will come when that happens.
- Jumping in for training dives to shoot bags and work on the basics is so much easier with just a some tanks.
- I would say the market for selling used doubles is deep than the market for rebreathers.

Before I take your advice under consideration, one question. Pat's or Geno's?

 

[Kevrumbo]

As a RB & tech instructor - I would say skip OC tech and focus on RB tech. Save simple OC for those trips where you are bimboling about. If you're thinking of those epic dives where a RB is a must - the cost, prep will be cheaper. Not to mention your dive partners will be similarly equipped on RB vs. OC.

I don't think there is much to lose doing a bunch of extended Nitrox dives and using 50% and O2 for stages. Or you can dive 28/15 or a real light mix etc. There are lots of 90-140 dives that deserve 40-100+ minutes.

- You can push off the really big purchase and training, gain great experience and see tons of wrecks etc.
- You get experience simply decompressing, you get experience switching and stowing stage bottles.
- When the SHTF in a big way you will be on OC and the day will come when that happens.
- Jumping in for training dives to shoot bags and work on the basics is so much easier with just a some tanks.
- I would say the market for selling used doubles is deep than the market for rebreathers.

How many rebreather dives would it take to recoup/amortize that huge initial outlay for a good CCR System with the training?

For reference, as the only OC diver other than the dive guides during June/July's Bikini Atoll Liveaboard (M/V Windward). gas costs for 17 dives over eight days including crew gratuity: $3.8k. (Helium $5.66/cuft, Oxygen $1.70/cuft). Excess baggage total fees charged by United Airlines (each way -each flight leg!): $1.2k (My X-scooter itself cost $400 as check-in luggage). Additional gas costs for a Truk Lagoon week add-on $1.1k.

My take is that I'd rather spend the $10k-$15k now for consecutive open circuit trips to Bikini & Truk and other historic Indo-Pacific WWII wreck sites (seventy-year-old wrecks that are all starting to collapse right now), instead of blowing it all for a just year's worth of training on a new CCR system. . .​

 

[tphelps]

I wholeheartedly DISAGREE.
I had the toughest time on a rebreather. Being a technical diver for almost two decades, and nearly all of those dives involving doubles, moving to a rebreather was the hardest thing I've done in diving.

I'm told that the better you are on OC, the harder you'll have it on CCR. And that was certainly my experience. But I'm sure that isn't everyone's experience.

What I will say is this. Now that I have my rebreather working good for me, I really wish I had started 15 years ago diving them. It's the most enjoyable diving ever. And not having to look at your pressure gauge is a freedom OC divers will never understand.

Superlyte27 nailed it. I was a student of Jeff Bozanic on the Titan and Prism2. One of the first things he taught me is that in many respects, operating a rebreather is more like flying an airplane than recreational OC diving. I began rebreathers on the Poseidon MKVI, after I finished my Divemaster and had just less than 100 dives.

In my first confined session, I swam underneath a shallow dock. The stealth of the CCR was so amazing that I actually started laughing, it was the coolest feeling ever! A year later I got certified on 3 additional units and I am proud to call myself the pilot of a Hollis Prism2. I am about ready to start my trimix training on OC (to build a foundation) then as soon as I have enough hours on my unit, go into mixed gas CCR. Because paying for $30 worth of helium is wayyyy better than spending $300 worth of gas!

So my advice, the best time to start rebreather is when you are ready to start "DIVING!" (And when you can afford it!) It takes a completely different attitude and mindset full of checklists and absolute attention to detail in pre/post dive checks. But all of that hard work and training is so worth it. Once you dive closed circuit, you may not go back to OC.

P.S. if you have more rebreather questions, you will find a lot more of us (rebreather divers) on rebreatherworld.com!

---------- Post added September 4th, 2013 at 03:32 AM ----------

Pretty much everything I knew about buoyancy control went out the window and I was simultaneously bouncing off the bottom, while trying to balance the loop volume, wing, and drysuit, and concentrate on breathing slowly and evenly.  It took a while but eventually I was able to get some slight semblance of neutrality and really started to enjoy myself, getting right up close to fish and enjoying the relative quiet.

All in all, I found it to be and extremely challenging, but very fun experience. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but in my opinion, it's not so much how much OC skill and training you have had, but rather how calm and comfortable you can be underwater with a lot of s&!t going on.
i'm still not sure how I will proceed, but I do know that somewhere in the future, CCR is for me.
I have been to the dark side and I loved it!

Woohoo!! Glad you had such a good first experience on a CCR! One thing I wanted to comment on is, I am surprised that your instructor let you dive dry in your very first rebreather dive. I wasn't allowed to go back to drysuit until I had 20 hours on my unit first. The reason being is you have to manage 2 buoyancy control devices on a rebreather - your wing and the loop volume. Diving in a drysuit means now you have to control THREE systems! So it is not surprising that it was tough your first time! But let me add, once you get those hours up. It gets much, much better. You'll be able to set the minimum loop right away and it will just click so it feels natural to you underwater. Granted that will take some time, but it DOES get easier. I remember assembling the Titan typeT CCR took me 3 hours the first time by the end of the course I could do it in 30 minutes.

:shades: WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE!!

 

[ScoobaChef]

Woohoo!! Glad you had such a good first experience on a CCR! One thing I wanted to comment on is, I am surprised that your instructor let you dive dry in your very first rebreather dive. I wasn't allowed to go back to drysuit until I had 20 hours on my unit first. The reason being is you have to manage 2 buoyancy control devices on a rebreather - your wing and the loop volume. Diving in a drysuit means now you have to control THREE systems! So it is not surprising that it was tough your first time! But let me add, once you get those hours up. It gets much, much better. You'll be able to set the minimum loop right away and it will just click so it feels natural to you underwater. Granted that will take some time, but it DOES get easier. I remember assembling the Titan typeT CCR took me 3 hours the first time by the end of the course I could do it in 30 minutes.

:shades: WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE!! [/QUOTE]

to answer your question, and I'm guessing because it never really occurred to me to ask, is that my instructor (Barry Hallett) was aware that I'm GUE trained and that their procedure is to keep minimal gas in the drysuit and only use the wing for buoyancy. Even at 30m, I rarely need more than a puff or two to alleviate squeeze. So in practical terms, I really only had to contend with two bcd's.

On the other hand, I think I may have had wayyy too much weight. Partly by design and partly by miscommunication. When we were working out my weighting, we started from my weighting with twins and drysuit (6# steel plate and 9# lead) for a total of 15#. The goal was to add 5# more but I'm not sure if he realised I was including the plate weight so I ended up with a 20# belt plus a 6# plate, putting me at 11# extra. I could be wrong, but judging from how slow my wing was to respond, I think it might've been too much.

 

[tstormdiver]

One thing I wanted to comment on is, I am surprised that your instructor let you dive dry in your very first rebreather dive. I wasn't allowed to go back to drysuit until I had 20 hours on my unit first. The reason being is you have to manage 2 buoyancy control devices on a rebreather - your wing and the loop volume. Diving in a drysuit means now you have to control THREE systems! So it is not surprising that it was tough your first time! But let me add, once you get those hours up. It gets much, much better. You'll be able to set the minimum loop right away and it will just click so it feels natural to you underwater. Granted that will take some time, but it DOES get easier. I remember assembling the Titan typeT CCR took me 3 hours the first time by the end of the course I could do it in 30 minutes.

:shades: WELCOME TO THE DARK SIDE!!

I'm still in training on my PRISM2. You are 100% correct about the controlling of the air spaces; I got caught unaware during an ascent from 95 ft & got into an uncontrolled ascent at about 40 ft. Since then I have really monitored all 3 air spaces religously. The drysuit & the wing were no big deal to me, as I am familiar with those through my technical diving, but the counter lung, takes a little more,... & also knowing exactly how much air to expel as I ascend or as oxygen is added, to keep minimal loop volume, can be a little tricky at the first. I have been diving my unit in a drysuit since day 1, but I also had nearly 600 drysuit dives before I started. You are also right that it does get easier as you get more & more familiar with the unit. I have completed the academics & probably will have to do another dive or 2 with my instructor before he turns me loose,... but that's OK. He has always made me go well beyond the minimum requirements in any course I have taken from him. I had nearly 60 cave dives (at intro level) under his supervision, before I completed my full cave. For that (although sometimes frustrating),.. I am eternally greatful. The most amazing thing I have felt during diving my PRISM2 is the absolute solidness of hovering in neutral buyancy. I don't move at all, even when on my back. I am quite glad I have started diving my unit, it was an excellent decision for the primary application I want to use it for (caves).

 

[berk]

Pat's all the way. I think lots of people think that Dalessandro's is the best and I agree.

Back to the economics CCR vs. OC. I think someone has calced it out or made a rough spreadsheet on one of these forums. A couple of things happens if you aren't diving all the time or have lots of rebreather buddies: your sorb can go bad or get old; your cells can go bad or get old; the electronics, seals, o-rings and lungs etc. need to be used. It's like a diesel truck, they don't like to sit around parked. The electronics and the units are far from flawless themselves. Things flood and things crap out. Of course you need to customize and pimp out your rebreather and get an extra pair of fancy faber tanks.

There is a real tipping point out there where you can start to save money and the convenience is incredible. It's hard to pin a dollar amount there. At one point I was living in NYC, and you get blown out on trips in the NE, so you have all these $100-15 fills sitting around that are mixed for a specific depth. All the stages. It's a real logistics nightmare. If you are diving deep and diving often, you will tend to make more trips with the reabreather. If you know people with a booster, some T-bottles for a bank and a nice garage and you have a big car that is a different story. As a frequent rebreather diver who is quiet and easy going, you start to get asked to fill extra slots from charter captains and get the reputation as someone who will fill in for someone who suddenly can't make a trip. You can be ready at a moments notice.

 

[ScoobaChef]

Pat's all the way. I think lots of people think that Dalessandro's is the best and I agree.

Back to the economics CCR vs. OC. I think someone has calced it out or made a rough spreadsheet on one of these forums. A couple of things happens if you aren't diving all the time or have lots of rebreather buddies: your sorb can go bad or get old; your cells can go bad or get old; the electronics, seals, o-rings and lungs etc. need to be used. It's like a diesel truck, they don't like to sit around parked. The electronics and the units are far from flawless themselves. Things flood and things crap out. Of course you need to customize and pimp out your rebreather and get an extra pair of fancy faber tanks.

There is a real tipping point out there where you can start to save money and the convenience is incredible. It's hard to pin a dollar amount there. At one point I was living in NYC, and you get blown out on trips in the NE, so you have all these $100-15 fills sitting around that are mixed for a specific depth. All the stages. It's a real logistics nightmare. If you are diving deep and diving often, you will tend to make more trips with the reabreather. If you know people with a booster, some T-bottles for a bank and a nice garage and you have a big car that is a different story. As a frequent rebreather diver who is quiet and easy going, you start to get asked to fill extra slots from charter captains and get the reputation as someone who will fill in for someone who suddenly can't make a trip. You can be ready at a moments notice.

Pat's was always good for late night, but I'm partial to Jim's or Rick's (which was gone last time I was up there. :-( )

There are two issues for me that brought me to start looking hard at CCR. The first is that around here, filling a set of twins with 21/35 costs about $400, and that is only looking to go up in the near future. The second thing is that I eventually want to get into expedition level diving, where ccr is pretty much a necessity.

I've got access to frequent dives, a great instructor and soon manny more rebreather buddies.

 

[tphelps]

I'm still in training on my PRISM2. You are 100% correct about the controlling of the air spaces; I got caught unaware during an ascent from 95 ft & got into an uncontrolled ascent at about 40 ft. Since then I have really monitored all 3 air spaces religously. The drysuit & the wing were no big deal to me, as I am familiar with those through my technical diving, but the counter lung, takes a little more,... & also knowing exactly how much air to expel as I ascend or as oxygen is added, to keep minimal loop volume, can be a little tricky at the first. I have been diving my unit in a drysuit since day 1, but I also had nearly 600 drysuit dives before I started. You are also right that it does get easier as you get more & more familiar with the unit. I have completed the academics & probably will have to do another dive or 2 with my instructor before he turns me loose,... but that's OK. He has always made me go well beyond the minimum requirements in any course I have taken from him. I had nearly 60 cave dives (at intro level) under his supervision, before I completed my full cave. For that (although sometimes frustrating),.. I am eternally greatful. The most amazing thing I have felt during diving my PRISM2 is the absolute solidness of hovering in neutral buyancy. I don't move at all, even when on my back. I am quite glad I have started diving my unit, it was an excellent decision for the primary application I want to use it for (caves).

@ScoobaChef: Ahh I see. Well yeah if you are GUE trained then you OBVIOUSLY know a thing or two about diving . I'll probably do my full cave course next year. Yeah weighting can be tricky. I forgot to upgrade to a steel back plate with my rebreather so I'll have to see how that works out and how much weight I will need. Doubles... haha. Before I do mixed gas CCR, I am going to do my trimix on air. I'll probably start that next month. But like Superlyte said, not having to worry about gas volume is such a freedom in CCR!

@Tammy: Sorry to hear about your incident. I had a rapid ascent from 60 feet in my drysuit last year. My inflator valve got stuck from a sternum strap in my sidemount harness and I got stuck inverted. I feel ya man, having no control is scary. Thank God we are both okay to this day and are even safer divers because of it! Nice man! Like I said to ScoobaChef, I want to do my cave course eventually, hopefully next year. Just while we are on the subject of caves, I want to share a story with you. My instructor for the P2 was Jeff Bozanic- Rolex Diver of the Year, has dove caves in 28 countries, mapped most of the Cozumel caves, and previous chairman of NSS CDS. I was talking to him one night about cave diving and rebreathers. He told me when he started rebreathers he had 150 hours on his unit before going back into caves. He did 1 cave and said "im not ready," aborted the dive. He did another 75 hours before he went back into caves. Im sure you are a very capable diver, heck you have twice as much dives as me! But it was really humbling for me to hear that even a hall of fame inductee had to log that many hours before cave diving CCR again. On that note, I just read this article on Advanced Diver Magazine. You might like it! Dual CCR!!!

The PIT • ADVANCED DIVER MAGAZINE • by Krzysztof Starnawski

Glad to hear you are enjoying your Prism2, I can't wait to dive mine next!