Cavern To Full Cave Pace

[1Cave Ghost]

I did bunch of cavern diving before jumping into full cave.
Practicing skills and getting comfortable is what Cavern is for.
No need to rush, have fun, take your time and you will live longer.

 

[Six Feet Under]

Not to necropost, but I am gunning for the title of "longest held Intro to Cave card" on the planet at this point, I think.
Did cavern/intro combo in March 2015, sucked big-time and was told we were going for cavern-only by the time the class had one day left. Woke up the last day and flooding had closed everything but Ginnie, which was my worst cave during the entire five days. So we packed up and I headed home with no card and a promise to have one day of free instructed diving held for me (the last day of class) after I worked on the skills I needed to work on, due to all my dive buddies being cavern/intro/full by then and fairly good divers to boot.

Between my work schedule and personal schedule, it took a year before I came back and finished that last day to get my Cavern card.
Then I waited about six months (was diving more than any other hobby by this point), and did my Intro class in September 2016 so impressively (compared to the abomination of a performance during Cavern) that my instructor said he wanted to see my ID to make sure I was the same guy.

Lost my job, had a couple years of low income when I was working the first thing I could take while I figured out what I was going to do, re-started school, got out of my toxic relationship and ended up in a new one a while later, moved three times in two years, got engaged and married, started two businesses and became self-employed and had very little time for diving amongst all of that. Ergo... we're in the last half of 2023 and I'm STILL Intro to Cave certified... and just now got bored enough with it that I took AN/DP in order to prepare for full cave and some deeper ocean diving I want to do at the end of the year in SE Florida.

If it were me, I'd do the sidemount course, wait a couple weeks (at least) and do some diving. Do Cavern or Cavern/Intro if you are comfortable with cave diving skills, then Full a little while later. People seem to want to do the zero to hero, cavern to full cave and then immediately move into doing 2000-3000+ foot penetration dives path, which IMO is foolish.

I definitely learned the hard way; I took a really poorly taught PADI Open Water class in May 2013, didn't dive at all until February 2014, really; blew through my AOW specialties in like 3 months in summer of 2014, got a full tech gear setup with no Intro to Tech or Fundies-style training, and went right into Cavern class in March 2015. I was doing okay in technical dive gear in the open water, but nowhere near as good as I should have been in order to go into a cave (and looking back, I suspect that everyone that would see me at dive sites knew that, as well).

My wife is wanting to learn to dive at this point and I've had her in the pool a few times teaching her water comfort (mask, fins, snorkel, breathing off a regulator underwater to see what it's like, swimming laps with some equipment on) in the manner I WISH I had been taught in, so that when it comes time to do her actual class she's not completely lost.

 

[Wibble]

Not to necropost, but I am gunning for the title of "longest held Intro to Cave card" on the planet at this point, I think.
Did cavern/intro combo in March 2015, sucked big-time and was told we were going for cavern-only by the time the class had one day left. Woke up the last day and flooding had closed everything but Ginnie, which was my worst cave during the entire five days. So we packed up and I headed home with no card and a promise to have one day of free instructed diving held for me (the last day of class) after I worked on the skills I needed to work on, due to all my dive buddies being cavern/intro/full by then and fairly good divers to boot.

Between my work schedule and personal schedule, it took a year before I came back and finished that last day to get my Cavern card.
Then I waited about six months (was diving more than any other hobby by this point), and did my Intro class in September 2016 so impressively (compared to the abomination of a performance during Cavern) that my instructor said he wanted to see my ID to make sure I was the same guy.

Lost my job, had a couple years of low income when I was working the first thing I could take while I figured out what I was going to do, re-started school, got out of my toxic relationship and ended up in a new one a while later, moved three times in two years, got engaged and married, started two businesses and became self-employed and had very little time for diving amongst all of that. Ergo... we're in the last half of 2023 and I'm STILL Intro to Cave certified... and just now got bored enough with it that I took AN/DP in order to prepare for full cave and some deeper ocean diving I want to do at the end of the year in SE Florida.

If it were me, I'd do the sidemount course, wait a couple weeks (at least) and do some diving. Do Cavern or Cavern/Intro if you are comfortable with cave diving skills, then Full a little while later. People seem to want to do the zero to hero, cavern to full cave and then immediately move into doing 2000-3000+ foot penetration dives path, which IMO is foolish.

I definitely learned the hard way; I took a really poorly taught PADI Open Water class in May 2013, didn't dive at all until February 2014, really; blew through my AOW specialties in like 3 months in summer of 2014, got a full tech gear setup with no Intro to Tech or Fundies-style training, and went right into Cavern class in March 2015. I was doing okay in technical dive gear in the open water, but nowhere near as good as I should have been in order to go into a cave (and looking back, I suspect that everyone that would see me at dive sites knew that, as well).

My wife is wanting to learn to dive at this point and I've had her in the pool a few times teaching her water comfort (mask, fins, snorkel, breathing off a regulator underwater to see what it's like, swimming laps with some equipment on) in the manner I WISH I had been taught in, so that when it comes time to do her actual class she's not completely lost.

You’re not alone. There’s literally a cavernous difference between the standards required for OW/AOW and any of the technical level skills. If not, why does Peak Performance Buoyancy exist?

You went to cavern and struggled, you could equally have gone to ANDP or Fundies and struggled/failed there too. I did Fundies and had a thoroughly miserable experience as my ‘adequate' recreational skills were nowhere near good enough for the standards required for Fundies.

After that wake-up call, at least "we" both then knew what good looked like and had a target to aim for. The rest just took time, practice and determination.

Analogies abound. "Me speeek der English some goodly" is fine to book on a resort OW dive boat, but hardly the level of language competence required to comprehend a lecture on Gradient Factors and Dive Planning.

 

[Germie]

This really depends on the diver. Some divers can do zero to hero without problems.

The first question you have to ask is: are you already a diver with a good bouyancy, trim and finkicks? If not, you need to pratise. Do you have a buddy to practise with? Then do that. If not, there are courses you can follow. The need of such courses depends on the diver. A lot can do without, a lot can't.
Then, are you already used to technical dive equipment? Yes? A twinset? Great. If not, you have to become a little bit familiar with the use of it. Also here, some divers can do this in 1 dive, others need 10 dives.

Then the adviced courses.

Let's start with sidemount first. A cert is not an requirement, you must be able to dive sidemount the right way to start a cave course in sidemount. If you don't do now, the course can be helpfull. If you do diving on your own also, you can maybe do it yourself. But this depends on how fsat you want to do things, how good you are in adjusting things, etc. If you do it yourself it takes more time. You need to use a selfiestick with camera to film yourself and then evaluate and adjust after a dive. You must be able to see what must be changed in your configuration. This is doable on your own or with a good buddy. But it goes faster with the right instructor.
But is sidemount needed? No, if you are used to a twinset, you can also do full cave in a twinset, even in Mexico. I have dived there also with a twinset (but prefer sidemount, so now only sidemount). You can do full cave and start sidemount later also.
Sidemount cave is a cave specialty after a full cave cert and also here, no sidemount or technical sidemount card is needed to do this course. Only the ability to dive with the equipment the right way.

Then cavern. Some agencies don't teach cavern anymore, others directly go to intro to cave, but have the option to do cavern. With cavern, you still have to dive with a guide in Mexico. So is this usefull? I guess not. I would do then at least cavern+intro or directly intro (which takes a little bit longer then because cavern skills must be mastered also). Then you can dive on the mainline and do T's with most agencies. Some agencies don't allow T's on intro level. Happely in Mexico there are not a lot of T's.

But a big issue you will encounter probably when doing only intro to cave is the limit of gas. That is most times 1/6, sometimes 1/3 of 2/3 and only in a few times 1/3. And here it starts with you. Can you accept only the 1/6 rule? Or are you a person that soon things: I can do 1/3 also? (I don't discuss if 1/3 is always the best way).
Also, can you withstand the idea of a nice side tunnel that is forbidden and stay on the mainline?
If the question is no, then do full cave also in zero to hero.
I live in Europe and almost every intro to cave diver goes over the limits within less than 5 dives. Most times it is the gas rule, but also here you see deco (officially intro to cave is without deco, with full cave you can do if you have a deco cert). I have seen intro to cave divers with extra bottomstages, with decogases, doing jumps, etc.
Yes, I am also human, I would have been such a person also. So for me there was no question and do all in 1 week. And then after the course, I was not a person to push limits, but the idea of that it was 'forbidden' would make me do it then. Just a human thing, haha.

So look at yourself and ask yourself what kind of diver you are. Are you able to master already a twinset, why not look at doing the courses in twinset? Do you think sidemount is better, then do you need a basic user level course or not?
And then, are you a person that want to do all, then do the zero to hero.

Yes, there is a lot of mainline in Mexico and yes, sometimes I do it also. But the idea of officially no jumps allowed, can you really withstand that? Or the limited gasrule? This are the main questions if zero to hero can be the way to go for you or not.
But I will never advice to make it too complex directly after you course. Do the first dives on mainline, then do somewhere 1 jump, then later do recalculations, etc. More jumps and recalculations, more cylinders, that can take a while.
What I see here is that most zero to hero people are more carefull directly after the courses than the intro to cave ones. 'Forbidden' things are nice to do, that is also a human thing, so people want to try.

 

[HandsomeYoungPete]

The Cave Divers Association of Australia have a reasonably solid approach.
To get Basic Cave (Cavern / Sinkhole) you need 100 OW dives.
To get Cave you need 20 logged dives in Cavern / Sinkhole rated sites equaling a minimum of 10 hours in at least two different sites.
To get Advanced Cave (Full Cave) you must have logged at least 25 dives in Cave rated sites for a minimum of 25 hours at a minimum of 4 different sites across two different areas (think Florida and Mexico)

 

[Six Feet Under]

You went to cavern and struggled, you could equally have gone to ANDP or Fundies and struggled/failed there too. I did Fundies and had a thoroughly miserable experience as my ‘adequate' recreational skills were nowhere near good enough for the standards required for Fundies.

After that wake-up call, at least "we" both then knew what good looked like and had a target to aim for. The rest just took time, practice and determination.

I can only imagine the trip I'd have taken on the struggle bus if I tried doing something as strict as Fundies in between. In a way, I'm kind of glad

Ever since taking cavern and doing a bit of open water diving in the ocean (where SMBs were in use - until last fall I'd never used one outside of a training class because the only diving I'd done was in the springs/caves, minus a couple boat/shore dives in the Keys), I kind of feel like Intro and now AN/DP classes were just rehashing the same skills I already worked hard to become proficient in.

 

[Wibble]

Ever since taking cavern and doing a bit of open water diving in the ocean I kind of feel like Intro and now AN/DP classes were just rehashing the same skills I already worked hard to become proficient in.

It's kind of the way of things. ANDP needs your sorted core skills and some proficiency with doubles. To this they add the single stage handling skills and some task loading. From that it's normoxic trimix, handling two stages and needing better skills as there's more task loading. Not too dissimilar to MOD1 (the first CCR course) giving you the core skills which MOD2 (=normoxic trimix) where you're task loaded with much more planning and problem solving.

Cavern --> Intro was a progression. Expecting the same from Full Cave as a progression.

 

[Alekseolsen]

The Cave Divers Association of Australia have a reasonably solid approach.
To get Basic Cave (Cavern / Sinkhole) you need 100 OW dives.
To get Cave you need 20 logged dives in Cavern / Sinkhole rated sites equaling a minimum of 10 hours in at least two different sites.
To get Advanced Cave (Full Cave) you must have logged at least 25 dives in Cave rated sites for a minimum of 25 hours at a minimum of 4 different sites across two different areas (think Florida and Mexico)

To me it sounds absolutely crazy that say a northern Florida local couldn't take full cave without travelling to ie. Mexico.
I do get the different experiences/types of caves, but it's not like "Now I have full cave, thus I'm not allowed to get a guide in a new location"

The amount of dives does seem like a good idea

Above from a total newbie though

Edit:typo

 

[Germie]

2 different sites means 2 different cavesystems mostly. So in Florida there are also quite a lot. In a course you can do Peacock, Ginnie, Little river, Madison Blue springs, etc.

 

[Alekseolsen]

2 different sites means 2 different cavesystems mostly. So in Florida there are also quite a lot. In a course you can do Peacock, Ginnie, Little river, Madison Blue springs, etc.

Different systems makes sense to me, it's the two different areas I found strange:

25 dives in Cave rated sites for a minimum of 25 hours at a minimum of 4 different sites across two different areas (think Florida and Mexico)