Cavern Diving Definitions by Agency?

[MauiScubaSteve]

Well, I just pulled out my old NSS Cavern Diving Manual, with emphasis on old! I was mistaken about the fact that this is actually the first edition, first printing, from 1988 (certified spring '00). I also don't remember receiving a Cavern Cert card. I continued directly to Intro To Cave and that is the only card I remember receiving, although that card is no longer in my possession.

I have no interest in deco diving, due to my understanding of increased risk in body parts with traumatic orthopedic history (I have many). My Cavern and Intro training were both in the same gear; adjustable shoulder Seaquest jacket style BC, MK-12/R190, standard analog console, Uwatec Aladdin Pro (all my personal gear), Dive Rite 1st/7' 2nd, DR reel, 100'ish cft with Y or H valve (all supplied by my instructor).

My reason for this thread was just to be able to accurately answer the question; "What are the cavern diving limits as stated by the various cave training agencies?" Have the NSS-CDS cavern diving limits changed in it's newer publications?

From the linked thread I now know the differences between my old NSS cavern manual and the NACD workbook; 50 cft/2000 psi vs 58 cft/2000 psi minimum to enter, 130' linear vs 200' linear, 70' max depth vs 100' max depth and 40' vis vs 30' vis.

Is there a NACD Cavern Diving manual? Could anybody tell us about Cavern Diving manuals from; CDAA (Australia), CDG (Great Briton), IANTD, TDI and GUE. Do these agencies have a Cavern Diving manual? Is there any difference in their published cavern limits from the two different limits outlined in this and the linked thread?

 

[ucfdiver]

The info in my thread can directly from the latest version of the NACD student handbook. It can be purchased from Lloyd Bailey's Scuba and Watersports - HOME PAGE or the NACD directly. If you order from Lloyd Bailey's shop, he's a former NACD president and should answer all your questions.

 

[peterbj7]

Unfortunately PADI have adopted a word in common parlance and changed its meaning. Stupid, and Microsoft do it all the time. Cavers have long termed the large chambers they come across deep underground "caverns", a perfectly sensible word. Then PADI, or to be fair it may be the cave diving community, decided this word should mean something different. Personally I'll stick to proper English, and when I have to speak "PADI" (or is it just "American"?) I'll amplify what I say to avoid confusion. So I'll always call a "cavern" in PADI-speak an "alcove" or "the mouth of a cave".

In England this usage is unacceptable, as cave diving is driven by cavers, not divers. Even to be accepted as a student to learn cave diving you have already to be a reasonably accomplished caver. In America any diver thinks by going into a cave he becomes a cave diver. That's why there are so many fatalities.

 

[ucfdiver]

Unfortunately PADI have adopted a word in common parlance and changed its meaning. Stupid, and Microsoft do it all the time. Cavers have long termed the large chambers they come across deep underground "caverns", a perfectly sensible word. Then PADI, or to be fair it may be the cave diving community, decided this word should mean something different. Personally I'll stick to proper English, and when I have to speak "PADI" (or is it just "American"?) I'll amplify what I say to avoid confusion. So I'll always call a "cavern" in PADI-speak an "alcove" or "the mouth of a cave".

In England this usage is unacceptable, as cave diving is driven by cavers, not divers. Even to be accepted as a student to learn cave diving you have already to be a reasonably accomplished caver. In America any diver thinks by going into a cave he becomes a cave diver. That's why there are so many fatalities.

Stereotype much?

 

[peterbj7]

What does that mean?

 

[ucfdiver]

What does that mean?

I was just pointing out your completely false and stereotypical statement of "In America any diver thinks by going into a cave he becomes a cave diver."

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Google is a good way to learn words you don't know. Remember when Fuzzy said Tigers Masters menu would be fried chicken and watermelon (what ever); that's stereotyping.

So, I've been to the Wikipedia page for CDG and it seems CDG is the oldest cave diving organization. They evolved from dry cavers using surface supplied, then rebreather, then nitrox, then air finally in the 60's. It does not appear they use the word cavern the way North Americans do, although the delivery was stereotypically arrogant!

 

[peterbj7]

I apologise for saying "any" diver, which patently is not true. But even so it's very different from the UK, where cave diving is (as I said) a branch of caving, not of diving.

On the "cavern" question, think of the word "cavernous" and what it means. It's clear that someone along the way corrupted the meaning of "cavern". Now, this happens to many words which simply acquire the new meaning and drop the old. That is not the case here, and once you move away from the world of American cave divers (by that, I mean divers of any nationality who adhere to the precepts of American diving organisations) you will find universal agreement on the meaning of "cavern" as a large chamber generally deep underground.

No desire to get up people's backs. It just worries me how readily people seem to forget what a word means, and how to derive its meaning from its etymology.

Incidentally, on words being forced to have different meanings by commercial organisations rather than by usage, I had two examples in mind of Microsoft doing this. The first is "icon", which certainly never meant "small picture" or anything like it - I can't imagine how someone in MS chose this word.

The second is "Windows", which was shamelessly stolen from Lotus. They introduced the "windows" concept as different views of the same data in their Symphony product (first generation, the DOS-based one, not the recent product that they've given the same name). MS not only poached the word but also dropped the key part of its meaning. It makes sense for there to be different "windows" or views of the same data if you change your viewing point. The word makes no sense when each view is of completely different data, but that's what MS chose for it.

I found MS's concepts of computing very confusing when I first came across them, as I had been brought up with mainframes and their systems. Suddenly lots of keystrokes acquired new and patently illogical default meanings, which are now so natural to us we no longer see them as arbitrary and rather silly. Most people never knew the background to MS's rise anyway, but lots of us "in at the start" were quite puzzled. I think they did arbitrarily change many meanings to set them apart from IBM, and then proceeded to trounce IBM in the marketplace. Examples are [Tab] to move between fields and [Ctrl][Alt][Del] for a hard restart, but there are many others. Mind you, [\] and [/] were in use then and also had pretty arbitrary meanings.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Is there a NACD Cavern Diving manual? Could anybody tell us about Cavern Diving manuals from; CDAA (Australia), CDG (Great Briton), IANTD, TDI and GUE. Do these agencies have a Cavern Diving manual? Is there any difference in their published cavern limits from the two different limits outlined in this and the linked thread?

GUE does not have a cavern class. Their first class is Cave 1, equivalent to the Intro/Basic level.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

OK, I'm bumping this thread because of discussions with a NAUI Cavern diver and NAUI Tech instructor.

Are there two NAUI Cavern certs; a Specialty that any recreational instructor can teach and a Tech Cavern that requires the instructor to at least be a Full Cave diver?

Anyway, the real reason for this bump is that I'm interested in hearing details about each agencies definition of "daylight zone" or "direct sunlight zone" as a penetration limit. Yes I understand some feel this is only a "training dive" limit and after certification some contend it is like the 130' recreational depth limit, a recommendation. So let's just answer with the "training dive" limit with regards to light from the entrance.

My old NSS-CDS Cavern manual is precise in it's definition;

Direct Sunlight Zone - diver can see the opening (entrance/exit). If you can not see the opening but it is not pitch black, you are in the ambient-light zone. When it is pitch black and you can see nothing without lights you are in the zone of total darkness. Cavern diving is only in the direct-sunlight zone.

Especially with regards to NAUI's Tech Cavern cert, is there a precise "daylight zone" definition?